By TheLawyerMillionaire |
As a law firm owner, the world of estate planning may seem familiar, but have you truly tapped into its potential? In this episode, Stan Miller shares his expertise on estate planning and delves into the invaluable opportunities and solutions it offers including the importance of asking the right questions, understanding clients’ unique needs, and leaving a non-financial legacy.
In this episode, Darren Wurz is joined by Stan Miller, experienced estate planning attorney and author of “Your American Legacy.” Stan sheds light on the often overlooked power of estate planning tools and addresses common fears and concerns that clients may have. From protecting heirs’ inheritances to transferring non-financial wealth, Stan emphasizes the opportunities for attorneys to make a lasting impact. He also highlights the importance of crafting tailored solutions and shares valuable insights on helping clients navigate the estate planning process and building a thriving estate planning practice
- The importance of creating trusts that support beneficiaries’ desired outcomes and recommends the use of trustee letters and parent-to-child letters
- How to uncover clients’ true objectives by asking diagnostic questions
- The importance of building rapport and trust through active listening
- The immense impact of estate planning on clients’ lives and future generations
- The incredible opportunities for attorneys in the $70 trillion wealth transfer happening in the next 20-25 years
Connect with Darren Wurz:
- 30 Minute Chat With Darren
- Wurz Financial Services
- The Lawyer Millionaire: The Complete Guide for Attorneys on Maximizing Wealth, Minimizing Taxes, and Retiring with Confidence by Darren Wurz
- LinkedIn: Darren P. Wurz
- LinkedIn: The Lawyer Millionaire
- Twitter: Wurz Financial Services
Connect with Stan Miller:
About our guest:
Stan Miller is the CEO and Principal Attorney at Pinnacle Legacy Law —a law firm with headquarters in Little Rock, Arkansas. Stan is passionate about the power of estate planning and the positive difference it makes in the lives of families. His trademark skill is the ability to listen, first. He then walks his clients through the development of a custom solution for their specific estate planning needs.
His second trademark skill is the ability to explain your solution in simple understandable terms, you will know exactly what your plan does. Stan was an early pioneer in Living Trust planning in Arkansas- and at a time when most law firms were in favor of probating estates- a much more costly and time-consuming alternative to Living Trusts. He has established over 5,000 Living Trusts and helped protect more than $4.5 billion in assets.
Those pioneering successes led him to emerge as a national leader in Estate Planning. He later helped found WealthCounsel, LLC, the leading provider of education and document-drafting software for Estate and Business Planning attorneys throughout the US. In 2008, he was instrumental in co-founding ElderCounsel, LLC, which is now the national leader in technology and education for Elder Law attorneys. He served on the board of both companies prior to their sale in late 2021.
Stan is a sought-after speaker for professional audiences, individuals, families, colleagues, and contemporaries around the US. Speaking on topics including estate planning, business planning, wealth planning, and legacy planning. Stan previously served as an elected member of the Board of Directors for the City of Hot Springs, and as a member of the Board of St. Joseph’s Regional Health Center- now CHI St. Vincent.
He and his wife Patrice are the proud parents of two sons. Stan’s passion for helping his clients build powerful legacies led him to write the national bestselling book, Your American Legacy – Powerful Strategies That Instill Lasting Values for Generations. He founded The Legacy Leaders Network in 2022 and is training a national network of attorneys, financial advisors, CPAs, and realtors how to grow their business and help their clients build lasting legacies.
Stan is also the co-host of the Your Life, Your Legacy Podcast and the Legacy Leaders Podcast that can be found on Apple and Spotify.
Darren Wurz [00:00:06]:
Are you a law firm owner looking to maximize your success in the field of estate planning? Or maybe you need to get your own estate planning in order? Well, hold on to your seats, because today’s guests will share powerful strategies, common pitfalls, and insider tips on estate planning and building a thriving practice in this ever changing landscape. I’m your host, Darren Wurz and welcome to today’s episode of The Lawyer Millionaire. Today we have a very special guest joining us, renowned estate planning attorney and author Stan Miller. With over two decades of experience in the field, stan has established himself as an expert in estate planning. He’s also the co founder of Elder Council, director of wealth council organizations dedicated to supporting law firm owners in their expertise and practice development. And I have a copy of his book right here, your American Legacy. Welcome to the show, Stan.
Stan Miller [00:01:08]:
Darren, great to be here.
Darren Wurz [00:01:10]:
Absolutely. I’m excited to learn about your tips for estate planning, attorney for our audience, and also some of your expertise in building a law practice and being successful as a law firm owner. Before we get into that, I’d love to hear a little bit more about your journey and how exactly you became an estate planning attorney and how it led you to where you are.
Stan Miller [00:01:36]:
That it has been a journey. That’s a good way to characterize it. I didn’t start that way. When I was at Vanderbilt at law school and I took the course, I didn’t really actually like it, because when I took the class in the state administration, it seemed to me like it was all about greedy kids fighting over their parents money after the parents died. What you realize is that the way law schools work, they use this method. Every law school does it. They use the case method to teach. So what happens in law schools is they teach cases, but you only have cases if there was a controversy that ended up in court, right? So I’m thinking, this is what estate planning is. It’s these greedy relatives fighting with each other. What I didn’t learn until maybe ten years later is that that only represents 5% of what it’s all about. The other 95% is parents, generally parents or grandparents that really care about people that want to plan ahead to prevent controversies. Whenever it dawned on me that estate planning was really a profession that was about preventing controversy, not about exacerbating it, that motivated me. And I remember the moment it happened, I had been talking about doing this. And I had a law partner at the time who said, you’ve been talking about these living trust. And this was back in the day, when a living trust is not that popular. Everybody does living trust planning now, but back in the day, that was not the case. And so I’ve been talking to my partner about doing this. And one day he walked in and said, I have a client for you. I’ve already quoted the fee, and he set up the appointment. And she came in, sat down.
Stan Miller [00:03:32]:
I’d never done this right, so I didn’t know what I was doing. But I said, well, tell me about yourself. And for about 2 hours, she told me about herself. She told me about her late husband. She told me about her son and his issues. And as her life unfolded, I began to realize what I could do to really make an impact for her. I’m not going to mention her name on this podcast, but I’m telling you, I remember this person. I remember what she looked like, I remember her name. I remember what her assets were. And I realized at that moment, this is what I need to be doing. And so pretty much on that day, I quit everything else. And I said, this is what I do. And that’s where we ended up, one thing led to another, and at that time, there were no communities around this. It was pretty lonely. I was out there by myself. Through luck or divine intervention or whatever, a group of us got together. We co founded what came to be known as wealth council and then elder council. And we grew that company to a place where we had about 15,000 attorneys in our community. But all of that just developed because we needed the connection. We needed the resources that come from being able to get together in a room with other people who share the same experiences and have the same kind of clients and work together to figure out what the solutions ought to look like. It developed, but it was a long runway, I must say. It took a long time to really airborne because we had to invent every single piece of it from scratch.
Darren Wurz [00:05:23]:
Yeah, absolutely. So you saw an opportunity there to kind of redefine estate planning as more problem prevention on the front end. And I’m curious, is that kind of the biggest pitfall? What would be some of the biggest pitfalls you see with your clients when you’re working with them? Is it just not doing the planning ahead of time? What are some of those things that you see?
Stan Miller [00:05:46]:
Yeah. And this is not a new issue. This goes back to the beginning of time. I guess people prefer to put off thinking about their mortality. That’s not a new phenomenon, for sure. The challenge of estate planners is to get prospective clients motivated to sit down with you and actually do the work. And that’s always a challenge because people want to find every excuse in the world to put it off.
Stan Miller [00:06:27]:
That’s a challenge. Then the second challenge, I think, is really getting clarity around what clients want. And one of the things I give talks about this, and even in the attorneys that work for me, I have to constantly remind them, you can’t get in an order taker mode. If a client comes in and sits down across the table from you, it’s really easy to say, tell me what you want me to do for you. And the client quite often will say things like, well, I came to get our will done. It’s easy to grab a legal pad and say, well, what do you want the will to say? That seems intuitive, right? But what I’ve learned over the years is that clients don’t know how to ask for what they want. So it’s really often that people will say, I came and see you to get my will done. And what they’re thinking is, I need to get my will done because I saw what a train wreck it was whenever my neighbor down the street died and the family had to go through a probate proceeding. And so I want to prevent that from occurring, so I need you to do my will. Now, what we know is that if we make a will for them, we’re effectively guaranteeing probate, right? So this is a really common phenomenon where the thing clients ask for is not what they really want. What the client really wants is to not leave a mess, make it simple, keep it out of the court process. But making a will doesn’t do that. We’ve got to use another tool to accomplish that. So I give talks all the time to attorneys, and I’m saying, don’t ask clients what the legal solution is. It’s like going to the doctor and telling a doctor, I want a prescription for some medication, right? What I work to do and what I teach other attorneys to do is to ask diagnostic questions that don’t use legal words but are questions that are outcome driven, that get the client to tell us what their fears are and what it is they want to really accomplish. And the list of things is not that long. I mean, there typically are five or six things, maybe in some situations eight or nine things, but the list is not that extensive. What clients want is to not leave a mess. They don’t want to pay any more taxes than they have to. They want to keep it out of court if they can’t. And then beyond that, there are some other objectives that clients can accomplish that they don’t even know they can accomplish. And that’s part of the fun of this job, is that if you do the interview right with a client.
Stan Miller [00:09:28]:
You can get clients actually excited about this process because they come to realize that the tools that we have available to plan are more powerful than they realized. For example, one of the concerns that about, I want to say, 50% of married couples have is a fear that if I die first and my spouse remarries or doesn’t remarry, but becomes involved in a new relationship that that relationship could end up being toxic. The new person could have bad motives. This happens, right, in the grief that people experience whenever they lose a spouse. They land in another relationship and it just doesn’t work. There’s a divorce or at worst case, this person is a con artist. We’ve seen that a few times and people see this a lot. This is a concern, I found that is in particular, it’s a concern of wives. Most wives know that if they die before their husband, their husband almost certainly will be married in a year or two. Because every wife knows that husbands can’t live without female companionship, right? And so they’re really worried about what’s going to happen to this guy if they go first. And there are very specific planning solutions that we can build into the state plan, protect for that. But you don’t do that normally unless you ask the question, unless the client tells you that’s a concern. Another really common example, and I would say this approaches being universal. I will ask clients routinely, I’ve done this probably, I don’t know, 20,000 times in a client meeting. I’ll ask the client, is it important to you that the inheritance you leave to your children be protected in case they get divorced, in case they have a bankruptcy or a business failure or get sued by somebody? Is that important to you? And my experience is that the clients that I’ve worked with over the years, probably 95% of them will say yes to that. But what they also will say is, I didn’t know I could even do that. So to me, that’s one of the real opportunities in this space that attorneys need to know. I think that question just ask that way. Is it important to you that the inheritance you leave to your heirs be protected from divorces, lawsuits, creditor claims, and sometimes also, I would add financial immaturity.
Stan Miller [00:12:25]:
Stan Miller [00:12:28]:
Clients almost always will say yes to that, and that’s true. Even if their children are solid grown ups in great relationships, they still worry that things could happen. I think the challenge for us is really asking the right questions, peeling back what it is that clients really want, and then developing a plan that is like a fingerprint that meets the unique needs of that client. Rather than just being the order taker that lets the client dictate what they want, which in almost every case, doesn’t get the client what they really want.
Darren Wurz [00:13:03]:
I love that. That is so good, asking really good questions. And I do a similar thing when it comes to financial planning. There’s a financial planning process, it’s commonly known, it’s a six step process. But what I find is everybody’s so unique and you’re so right. It’s not just about going through a preset set of documents or processes, but really understanding where the client is, where they’re coming from, and what the solutions are going to be. That’s best for them. That’s great advice. And I think that carries over into many areas of law, not just estate planning, but other types of firms and how they’re dealing with clients.
Stan Miller [00:13:46]:
One other thing I’d like to add to that comment is that over the years, I’ve had the increasing awareness that in estate planning clients certainly do come to see estate planning attorneys to talk about creating legal documents. So that it makes clear who gets my money, my property, and does it in a way that accomplishes those objectives we talked about. And saves estate taxes. Whatever.
Stan Miller [00:14:18]:
One of the things I became increasingly aware of over the years is that there’s another motivation that people have that doesn’t get explored, and that is the need to leave a non financial legacy to younger generation family members. And by that I mean to leave good kids, to leave good grandkids. I really think that and this is really what motivated me to write this book, because I kept hearing this need expressed by clients to me and I was frustrated because I didn’t have the toolkit I needed. Because one thing lawyers hate is to have clients present them with a challenge that they don’t have solutions for. So I just said, well, if I block the time and make the effort to write a book about it, it’ll force me to think through those solutions. And so that’s what I did. I wrote a book about those solutions. Most of that book that you held up a few minutes ago is really focused on how to transfer non financial wealth, which I found is something that is compellingly important to almost every client. But they don’t tell you that in the meeting because they don’t think you’re a guy that can have anything to say or do about that. What I’m working to do, and my goal is to live long enough that I can make this dimension of estate planning ubiquitous. I’m hoping that I can look back in ten or 20 years and every estate planning attorney in America is routinely asking questions about non financial wealth. Are there important values that you want to make certain get passed on? Because at the end of the day, what does it really matter if I save taxes and save probate fees and all that? What does it matter if my kids aren’t doing Thanksgiving dinner together, if my kids become drug addicts? What I really want is to have kids and grandkids that are good citizens, that are making an impact in the world, that are making my family brand better in terms of the impact they’re leaving on their families, their communities and the world, right? That’s what I really want. I really believe that estate planning attorneys and I will also say to a large extent I think this is true for financial advisors is I think that we are in a unique situation.
Stan Miller [00:17:10]:
When people come to sit down with us to talk about their estate plan or when they come to sit down with a financial advisor. Especially if the conversation involves life insurance. Because life insurance is something that for the most part is a death benefit. I mean, I know there are other features to life insurance, but when you have a conversation about life insurance, there is an implicit acknowledgment that I’m going to die someday, right? People aren’t always thinking about this. They’re not thinking about that whenever they’re at the pharmacy or at the supermarket buying food. But whenever they come sit down with me.
Stan Miller [00:17:49]:
There is that moment in that moment when they’re with me, they’re here to talk about their mortality, and they recognize that. And so what I know is that if I’m good at what I do, if I have a good understanding of all the tools and resources that are available, really create a lasting multigenerational impact, the universe opens up to me. And in the moment when this client is sitting there in front of me, I am in a position to actually say things and do things and offer ideas and make recommendations that really and truly can have a ripple effect over a long time horizon. And I think about this because people
Stan Miller [00:18:39]:
That have studied this say that in the next, what, 20 or 25 years, we’re going to have 70 or so trillion dollars that’s going to pass hands. And it’s going to pass hands, Darren. It’s going to pass hands from the hands of people that, for the most part, earned the money, and it’s going to pass into the hands of people that did not earn the money. And just if you think about that, the number is so staggering. This has never happened. We don’t have any sociological data to even speak to. What are the implications of this? Because it’s historic. It’s never happened in all of humankind. We’ve never had this kind of wealth around to be transferred. And so when you think about the implications of having $70 trillion passed into the hands of people that didn’t earn it, the opportunity for mischief, for disaster, for damage to that generation is incredible. But it’s also true that the opportunity to do incredible, amazing things is there also. And so I think the challenge for us as lawyers is to really see ourselves not just as document creators, but as professionals who are in a unique who can be present with clients at a unique moment in time when we can be truly influential, where we can introduce and share ideas that can be implemented that have a lasting impact for time. I just think what we do, it has to be a calling. The power we have, the opportunity that we have to make an impact on the world, is probably more than is the case with any other profession.
Darren Wurz [00:20:36]:
Yeah, that’s awesome. And so I want to dig deeper into that non financial transfer. When you work with clients in practice in practical terms, what are some examples of what that looks like, that non financial transfer and how you help clients address that aspect in particular.
Stan Miller [00:20:59]:
So that was always a challenge, right? Not having clients that most clients want to do that. The issue is how do you do it? What ideas do you introduce? How do you get granular and practical, it turns out good news. There are lots of things that we can do. So for almost every client, what we encourage them to do is to write a trustee letter. Because if we’re going to create, let’s say, a subtrust or we’re going to leave assets and trust for our children for a while, maybe they’re too young to really manage the money and so maybe we’re not going to have them really take control of it for a while, maybe till they’re 30 or 35 or 40. So we’re going to have to have somebody else in charge of that trust, right? That might be a family member but it also might be a corporate trustee, a bank trust department. And the fact is that that bank trust officer whose job it is to do that probably will never know us and won’t know our children. So we encourage our clients to write a letter that’s not legally binding, but a letter that really comes from the heart that says, here’s why we created this estate plan and here are the specific concerns we have. Maybe we have a concern that we have a son or daughter that has an addictive behavior pattern or is in a bad relationship and we want the trust officer to know about that. We encourage our clients to write in these letters aspirationally what outcomes we really want. For example, it’s really common for clients to say I don’t want this wealth I’ve created to destroy my son’s work ethic. I want to create financial security. But also I don’t want him quitting his day job. And I think if the trustee knows that, then whenever that kid comes into the bank to have a conversation about a distribution, if the trust officer reads this letter and says, oh okay, I get it, I want the trustee to make distributions in a way that support the underlying outcomes I wanted. I want them to have financial again, I know I’m starving, I want to be educated and I want to be able to travel and live their best life. But I don’t want necessarily to give them the opportunity to quit their day job and live off of the trust, right? So that’s an important objective for a lot of clients. So trustee letters is an example of something that we do that’s really common. Sharing, documenting family history and stories is really important. And that’s especially important now because unlike 75 years ago where everybody lived close to each other, the grandparents knew the grandkids. Right now we live on the other side of the world. So these stories don’t get conveyed, so they have to be captured, written down or recorded in some format, in a book or in a video or something. So there’s that. Another really good example of a strategy that is not difficult to implement. Cost nothing to do, nothing to implement is to have the senior generation write a letter, a written letter to that child. These letters are just incredibly powerful. People need to hear that they’re loved. They need to hear that they matter. What parents can say in these letters can have just an incredible lasting impact. Not necessarily when the kid’s eight years old, at that point, the kid may not care, right? But when the kid’s 25, or maybe on the wedding day, these letters, you can read those and it’s like you may not be here to say these things, and so you need to say them. One of the things I’ve really come to appreciate is that when you love people, when there are people out there you care about, you need to tell them that often. Tell it, don’t worry about overdoing it. There’s no risk of that, right? You’ve got to say it and say it in really clear terms and not make it conditional, right? We don’t want to be loved if we’re good enough and measure up, right? We want to be loved like we are. And you need to be told that. Darren, you need to be told that about the people who are close to you. You need to be told, I love you like you are. I love you if you’ll be successful, if you’ll become a millionaire or whatever. It’s like, no, I love you like you are. And parents need to say that to their kids. They need to put that in writing so the kids can read it for decades after parents gone. And that’s not hard to do.
Darren Wurz [00:26:06]:
Yeah. And it’s so powerful. You’re so right in your last act, something that can live beyond you. To be able to send a message like that. Unfortunately, I’ve seen families where it’s been the opposite and someone’s written out of the will or something happens. And that’s such a tragic thing. Life is about so much more than that. So I really appreciate that message. Stan, unfortunately, we’re coming kind of near the end of our time here, so I want to ask a few more questions. You’ve built a successful practice, you’ve done some great things in estate planning. What advice do you have for other law firm owners or for the attorney or law firm owner listening to this? Who wants to become the next Stan Miller? What have been some of the secrets to your success that you would love to share with other attorneys?
Stan Miller [00:27:02]:
So, great question. And if I were going to make the list, there probably would be a number of things on it, but just a couple, given the time we’ve got left here. One is, I would say to really learn to listening is such an incredible tool when you learn how to create rapport with a client or a prospect. And there’s kind of an art to how you do that, and that’s a longer story. But I think studying how to do that, reading books or watching videos or whatever, there’s some basic tool skill sets you can develop. You will not accomplish anything with a client until you have rapport, because out of rapport comes trust. And when clients trust you, they will listen to you. They will follow your advice. If they don’t trust you, they’re not going to do that, and they may not even hire you. So you’ve got to learn how to create rapport. And then you have to listen. You know i’ve got a book I read once by this guy named Donald Miller. It’s called story brand. I don’t know if you know the book, but that book really influenced me. And he says that all successful businesses are really built on a movie script. And the key takeaway from that conversation, I think, for the question that you’re asking me is that attorneys need to understand that they’re not the star of the movie, they’re the mentor of the movie. In Star Wars. We’re not Luke Skywalker. We’re Yoda. We have to remember we’re the Yoda character. Right? It’s our job to listen and be the source of wisdom and come up with a plan that works to solve this client’s problem after we have patiently gotten them to really tell us what they really want. Not in terms of what legal documents they want, but what they really want to accomplish. We’ve got to understand that first, and then we’ve got to bring the education, the training, the skill set to really be able to do that. And fortunately, the tools are there. Now. I didn’t have those tools when I got in this space 35 years ago, but now we’re swimming in it. I’m kind of envious of the young people that get into estate planning now, because when I just go to the Wealth Council website, for example, and I look at all of the recorded videos on different topics, it’s like, my God, I could get a graduate degree sitting at home just watching Wealth Council videos. But we do have to come to the conversation prepared. We have to know what the tools are, how they work, how to implement them. So there’s a certain amount of craftsmanship in this, too, right? We have to know how to do this, but we have to listen first to know what the need is and always be on guard about becoming robotic in our solutions. What is it they say? If the only tool we have is a hammer, the world becomes a nail. And we’ve got to be really careful that we don’t fall into the trap of we just do living trust or we do medicaid trust, or we do this thing, whatever we do for a client, it’s got to be uniquely reflective of what they need to have. So we’ve got to be able to listen and discern that, and then we’ve got to have the skill and training to be able to really deliver on it.
Darren Wurz [00:30:43]:
That’s great stuff. I’ve got one more question for you, Stan, something we ask all our guests. Love to know what your dream retirement looks like. I don’t know. Maybe you’re dabbling a little bit in that now, perhaps share with us a little bit about. My answer is a good bit different than the one my wife would like to have it be. I’ve sort of had this know, I’m watching what Warren Buffett does, and when I see that he’s retiring, then I’m going to start thinking more seriously about it. Right?
Stan Miller [00:31:19]:
But I think this whole concept of retirement may be Western or maybe even an American concept. If you look at, like, I read this book the other day called Ikigai, and one of the things it was a book about how to live a long and happy life. And one of the things they said in the book is, retirement is not a concept. It’s universal.
Stan Miller [00:31:40]:
And so for me, what I want to be able to do is get up in the morning and be constantly stimulated by the opportunity to interact with the world around me, with clients and with guys like you. And I want to be able to continue to make an impact, because I feel like if I got to some point one day where I said, okay, I’m done with all that. I’m going to play golf or whatever first, I wouldn’t know how to do any of that. I have no skill set at that. But I don’t I don’t I don’t want to be out of the swim of this. I want to travel more. And so I am working to design my business life so I can spend more time in other places. But fortunately, now with technology, we can have Zoom meetings with colleagues and clients, and we can be anywhere in the world and do that. I want to get better at what I do. I probably need a couple of hobbies I don’t have. And so I’m looking at becoming a photographer and getting serious about that. But generally, I think if you talk to me ten years or 20 years or 30 years from now, hopefully I’ll be around then. I’ll be better at what I do now, and I’ll write more books. Hopefully I have a better I mean, I think all of us need to have a purpose. If we don’t have a purpose, life doesn’t work. And I think our purpose fundamentally has to. Fundamentally, and I think this is baked into human DNA, I believe our purpose has to be how do we make lives of other people better? And when we stop thinking about that, I think that that’s. When we die.
Darren Wurz [00:33:24]:
I love that it’s so critical to have a purpose. That’s good advice. And even for those that do plan on retiring completely, it’s got to be to something, you’ve got to have something else that you’re looking forward to that you’re going to enjoy. Well, real quickly, Stan, why don’t you share with us how listeners can find out more about you if they would like to?
Stan Miller [00:33:46]:
Sure. So I think the best way to do that is go to my law firm website, which is Pinnaclegacylaw.com, and you’ll learn about what we do there. That’s one way. Also, I have a website standmiller.com. It’s a personal website where I kind of tell my own story. And I have a new initiative called the Legacy Leaders Network where I’m getting attorneys and finance advisors and hopefully hypnotizing them and teaching them how to take these ideas and introduce them to their clients. But I would say go to my law firm website, Pinnaclelegacylaw.com, and I’m easy to track down.
Darren Wurz [00:34:34]:
Sounds good. Well, Stan Miller, folks, author of Your American Legacy, thanks so much for joining us today. And I want to thank you, the listener, for joining us today on The Lawyer Millionaire. If you want to learn more about us, check out our website, thelawyermillionaire.com. There you can find free resources and webinars, grab a copy of my book or even schedule a time to chat with me about your own financial goals and creating a plan to make them happen. If you enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode packed with useful advice and expertise for law firm owners just like you. We also invite you to leave a review and share The Lawyer Millionaire with your friends and colleagues who might benefit from our discussions together, let’s empower more law firm owners to achieve even greater levels of success and freedom. Now take what you learned today and go make your dreams a reality. I’m your host, Darren Wurz, and I’ll see you next time.