Turn Your Firm Podcast Into a Content Marketing Machine

Are you a law firm owner looking to elevate your client engagement and marketing strategy? Discover the untapped potential of podcasting in this riveting episode of The Lawyer Millionaire Podcast. Host Darren Wurz delves deep with podcasting expert Robert Ingalls, who shares his transformational journey from a litigating attorney to a podcasting pro. Tune in to learn how creating valuable, consistent content can amplify your firm’s branding and client acquisition efforts.

5 Things You Will Learn:

Inspiration to Transition: How Robert’s journey from litigation to podcasting can inspire you to pursue your own passions.
Podcasting for Client Acquisition: Strategies to turn podcast listeners into loyal clients and valuable referral partners.
Essential Equipment Recommendations:Affordable and effective microphone options to ensure top-notch audio quality.
Creating Evergreen Content:The benefits of producing lasting content through podcasting over traditional blogging.
Consistency is Key:The critical role of maintaining consistent, high-quality content to keep your audience engaged and build credibility.

From Litigating Attorney to Podcasting Pro

Robert Ingalls shares a fascinating transformation story. Initially a litigating attorney, Robert realized he didn’t enjoy the constant conflict inherent in his profession. A book and a compelling podcast served as catalysts, inspiring him to launch his own podcast. He eventually pivoted to producing podcasts for others, and now he’s here to share valuable insights on maximizing podcasting potential for law firms.

Why Podcasting? The Benefits for Law Firms

One of the significant advantages of podcasting is its efficiency in delivering quick and valuable content. Unlike traditional blogging, podcasts can cover complex topics in a conversational and easily digestible format. As Robert points out, with the hectic schedules most lawyers maintain, podcasting offers the unique advantage of minimal time investment while delivering substantial value.

Creating Evergreen Content

Robert emphasizes the power of evergreen content. Podcasts are perfect for producing material that remains relevant for years. This is a huge advantage over traditional blogging, where posts can quickly become outdated. By maintaining a steady stream of high-quality podcasts, law firms can build an impressive library of content that continues to attract and engage listeners over time.

Consistency is Key

Darren and Robert both stress that consistency is crucial. Irregular posting schedules and outdated blog posts can leave a negative impression. Regularly updating your podcast and maintaining a consistent release schedule will help you build and retain an audience, ultimately driving more clients to your firm.

Turning Listeners into Clients or Referral Partners

A core strategy discussed in the episode is converting podcast listeners into clients or referral partners. Robert suggests establishing your expertise from the get-go and articulating a clear call to action. Whether you’re looking to gain more clients or streamline referrals, podcasts offer a direct and engaging way to connect with your target audience.

Invest in Quality Sound

Good audio quality is non-negotiable. Robert highlights the importance of consistent and high-quality sound in podcasting. Thankfully, achieving this is more affordable than ever, with various budget-friendly microphone options available.

Networking Through Podcasts

Both speakers agree on the unrivaled power of networking through podcasting. Engaging with guests and nurturing listener relationships can lead to invaluable referrals and business opportunities. Additionally, creating different types of podcasts tailored to different law firm specialties can help you connect more deeply with your niche audience.

Monetary Goals and Financial Planning

A significant portion of the episode is devoted to discussing financial aspirations. Robert’s big goal is to build an eight-figure business, allowing him to live comfortably without the need to work continually. Openly discussing financial goals and recognizing that money amplifies existing traits can help instill a healthy mindset around wealth and success.

Conclusion

Whether you’re a budding podcaster or a seasoned attorney, there are invaluable takeaways in this episode. From creating evergreen content to turning listeners into clients, Robert Ingalls’ insights offer a roadmap for law firms aiming to leverage podcasting as an effective content marketing tool.

For more resources and in-depth financial planning advice tailored specifically for law firm owners, be sure to visit https://wurzfinancialservices.com/. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review to stay updated on the latest strategies to enhance your firm’s success.

Resources:

Connect with Ross Pitcoff:

Linkedin: Robert Ingalls
Facebook: LawPods
Instagram: LawPods
Website: Lawpods

About our guest:

Robert Ingalls is a recovering attorney, professional speaker, and the founder of LawPods, one of the first podcast production agencies for law firms. At LawPods, Robert and his team help some of the premier law firms in the world launch and grow branded podcasts that build relationships and drive revenue.

Robert’s path to Podcast Producer to the Am Law 100 was anything but direct. For years he battled anxiety from the pressure, long hours, and constant conflict of a litigation career. When he was finally ready to throw in the towel, he had no idea what to do next. With no business/marketing background and only a love for podcasts he discovered while creating a podcast for his law firm, Robert decided to see if lawyers would pay him to help them launch podcasts. With very few takers in the early days, Robert spent two years in a corporate banking gig, grinding nights and weekends to finally bring LawPods to life.

As a speaker, Robert frequently speaks on topics including Positioning Your Firm Podcast for Success, Prioritizing Mental Health, Entrepreneurship, and Law Office Technology. In his spare time, he enjoys teaching podcasting at community events, spending time with his wife and daughters, and skateboarding/snowboarding.

Transcript:

Darren Wurz [00:00:52]:
Have you ever considered amplifying your law firm’s brand voice in a way that not just informs, but also connects with your audience on a deeper level? Friends, today we’re diving into a powerful tool in the legal sector. That’s right. Podcasting. And who better to illuminate this topic than a guest who has made this his life’s work? Welcome to the Lawyer Millionaire podcast. I’m your host, Darren Wurz, financial planner for law firm owners. Today we’re joined by Robert Ingalls, a seasoned professional speaker and founder of Law Pods.

Darren Wurz [00:01:29]:
From simultaneously juggling gears as a litigating attorney to the roller coaster of launching one of the first podcast production agencies designed for law firms, he’s had quite a journey. Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert Ingalls [00:01:44]:
It’s so nice to be here. I was telling you before we got on that I’ve listened to the show, and just being in. Being on the same show with some of the guests you’ve had is an honor in itself. I really appreciate you having me.

Darren Wurz [00:01:55]:
Yes, absolutely. And I’m excited to talk to you about podcasting. I hope that maybe I will pick up some tips for myself as well along the way to be selfish.

Robert Ingalls [00:02:05]:
Yeah, well, you’re doing pretty good, so I’ll do my best.

Darren Wurz [00:02:07]:
Well, thanks. Well, let’s kind of start with where you came from. We were talking about this before we jumped in. You actually were an attorney yourself, but found that you wanted to maybe go in a different direction. Tell us about that transition.

Robert Ingalls [00:02:22]:
Man, I’ll say if I’m allowed to curse here, I was losing my shit as an attorney, and I didn’t even really know, it. It was one of those things where you don’t know how heavy what you’re carrying around has gone until somebody takes it off your back. And I just. I got into this career, and, well, it turns out I don’t like conflict. And it was. I don’t know how much you know about a litigation career, but. But business development is recruiting conflict. Hey, you got any conflict that I could make my conflict, and the types of people that are drawn to these kinds of careers can, you know, be a little.

Robert Ingalls [00:03:07]:
Little bit like that.

Darren Wurz [00:03:08]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:03:08]:
And so I found myself just deep in this world of conflict. And I’d learned from a really young age that if I was gonna get anywhere that I wanted, I was gonna have to lean into pain and discomfort. And I knew I wanted a lot from life. And I came from a small, rural community where people didn’t really do much, and I felt out of place there, and I always knew I wanted something bigger. And so I learned young. Like, look, you gotta lean in. Once things get hard. You’re not gonna get anything if you don’t lean in.

Robert Ingalls [00:03:41]:
So I find myself several years into this career, and my. Everything in my body is like, you’ve got to run from this. This is not for you. And I leaned in for a while because I thought, like, you don’t give up. And I’m glad I did. It taught me something about myself. But it all really broke when I got married, and that’s not what broke me. I love my wife, okay? The best woman on the planet, you know, no disrespect to my mom.

Robert Ingalls [00:04:12]:
She’s right there, too. But we got married, and right after we got married, she came to me just a couple months later and said, I want to have a baby. And, you know, like, when? And she’s like, oh, like yesterday, basically. Like, go. Go in the bedroom, and let’s get ready. Right. That kind of thing. And.

Robert Ingalls [00:04:33]:
And that hit me hard because I wasn’t ready for that. And we talked maybe one day we’d have children, but it was like, tomorrow, guys, problem. And now I’m faced with the reality somebody might live here next year. And I was broke. I had student loans that were crushing me. I had not figured out how to make money as an attorney. And under all this stress and anxiety that I didn’t really have words for yet, because I’m just toughing it out. Cause that’s what you do, right? And, oh, I had a freak out.

Robert Ingalls [00:05:04]:
I mean, I feel like mostly unbeknownst to her, but it was tough.

Darren Wurz [00:05:08]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:05:09]:
And once I kind of recovered, I sat down and I made a list, and at the top of the list was money, because none of the rest of it mattered. If I couldn’t figure out how to start providing better, then things were gonna get hairy. And so I read this money book and another book from the same author on leadership, and that book said, you should listen to our podcast. This is September 15. I’ve never listened to a podcast before. And so I opened the app, I listened to the podcast, and then I found this other podcast called awesome office. Right after that, Tom Bill used the founder quest nutrition. He’s the first guest on the podcast.

Robert Ingalls [00:05:50]:
I listened to it, and it was like that back to the future timeline that doc draws, where it kind of, like, comes down here, and it’s an alternate. That moment in my life feels that important, where everything just went, because, I mean, essentially, Tom’s takeaway was, you can be anything you want with you in your life. We’ve heard it a million times, but I heard it, and I’m sitting there and thinking, I think I can do anything I want. And I bought $1,000 worth of gear within 30 days. Now, I didn’t know I was going to make podcasts for other people. That’s bananas. I mean, it’s still crazy to me that I do it, but I knew that the medium resonated with me. It was so powerful that somebody could sit down, like we’re doing right now, and have a conversation, just talk about things that they care about, that they are passionate about.

Robert Ingalls [00:06:37]:
Other people can just lean in and listen. However long later, you can have that profound of an impact on them. And so it just. I mean, this is the mic I bought right after I listened to that podcast.

Darren Wurz [00:06:49]:
Oh, cool.

Robert Ingalls [00:06:50]:
Go big or go home, right?

Darren Wurz [00:06:51]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:06:52]:
And that. That’s what. That’s what took me on that path. I kind of just spun down. It took a few years before I started doing it for other people, but that’s where it started.

Darren Wurz [00:07:00]:
Yeah. Wow. So did you, like, start your own podcast first? What was the entry into this world of podcasting?

Robert Ingalls [00:07:08]:
Yeah. Me and one of my colleagues would sit down at night and just learn how to use the gear. And, like, back then, the rodecaster pro wasn’t a thing. You had to use a mixing board with knobs, and, yeah, it all out. And so we’re sitting out at night. We’re just learning how to do it. And then I started a podcast in my law firm, and I was getting really cool feedback from it. I was surprised anybody was listening to it, and even older clients that I wasn’t working with at the moment were listening to it.

Robert Ingalls [00:07:39]:
And I say, this is really nifty, but I’ll tell you, I had a really real big problem with it, and that was. It was hard for me to talk about the law. I found myself wandering into other areas, and that’s really where I wanted to be. And so I finally broke that podcast off from the law firm, but that was also around the same time that I was like, I just don’t think I can stay here because I was trying to stay in laws, trying, like, different practice areas, and. And so I broke the podcast off. I made it its own thing, and that’s when I went face first into the world. I started going to conferences, and that’s where I met my people.

Darren Wurz [00:08:16]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:08:16]:
I started to meet, like, my colleagues, people that were very similar to me.

Darren Wurz [00:08:21]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:08:22]:
And I just geeked out in the world and got. Just fell face first, left law entirely, got a job at a bank, and worked in their compliance department for a couple of years while I built this. And then after. After two years, I was able to quit that job. Quit it on March. March 2, 2020. Excellent timing, right?

Darren Wurz [00:08:43]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:08:44]:
I thought I’d made a huge mistake, and it. But it allowed me to go all in, and here we are.

Darren Wurz [00:08:50]:
I think a lot of people went through a transition in 2020 like that. And I love your story because so many people have a similar story, and I have a similar story. I spent the first five years of my life as a high school science teacher, and I thought that was the dream, and I realized this wasn’t for me. And I felt like, oh, no, I can’t leave this. What kind of a person am I if I leave teaching and become something else? You know what I mean? But you can discover later on what your passion is. And, yeah, life’s short. Make a change. Do something you love.

Darren Wurz [00:09:30]:
Absolutely.

Robert Ingalls [00:09:31]:
Yeah. Follow your interest. It. I know that it’s. That hasn’t always been the reality for a long time. For most, I mean, almost the entire human history, you did what you had to do. But that’s the cool thing about the moment that we’re in, is you have an opportunity now. Like, podcasting was.

Robert Ingalls [00:09:50]:
It wasn’t even a word until 2004, and now it’s my career. And we live in a time where you can follow your interest, and if you have the tenacity for it, there’s a really good chance you can monetize it to a point where you can make it your career.

Darren Wurz [00:10:06]:
For sure. For sure. Well, let’s dive into it a little bit with, when it comes to podcasting and lawyers, give us your pitch. Why should lawyers start podcasts?

Robert Ingalls [00:10:19]:
You know, I’ll give you the lawyer answer. It depends. So it, but it really does. Why, what do you want? Because frequently we want business. Right. And where does that business come from? Because we’re not a chop shop. We’re not here to just have you show up. You record all your podcasts, and then we’ll just put an intro on it, put an outro on it, and say, here’s your edited podcast.

Robert Ingalls [00:10:40]:
We’re a marketing strategy firm, and our vehicle is podcasting. And so what is it that we’re trying to get? Are we looking for referrals? Is that really where we get the bulk of our business? Because if it is your podcasting, maybe a referral podcast. Michael Cowen with trial or nation is a really good example. He’s been doing this for years, and he has a podcast for other trial lawyers where he’s talking, breaking down cases. He’s also bringing on some of the most exceptional trial lawyers around the world, talking to them about their verdicts, getting to know them, their tips. But he’s networking with them, too, getting to know them, bringing them in, kind of like we’re doing right now.

Darren Wurz [00:11:19]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:11:20]:
And then other lawyers are learning and listening. And now when they have a case, they have a trucking case, and it’s a little bit, you know, a little bit big for their britches at the moment. And who are they going to send that to? Oh, I know this guy. I, you know, you have that feeling of reciprocity, too, where he’s given you so much, like you have gone into court and used something that he told you and ended up getting a really good result. Well, that’s valuable. And so he’s creating relationships with people all over the place that get to know him, like him and trust him. And that’s going to help his referral game really big. But then let’s take a PI firm that is relies a lot on search marketing.

Robert Ingalls [00:12:02]:
They have a really big funnel of leads that are falling into their website. What do those leads want when they get there? They, they want to get nurtured. Whether they know it or not, they want to know that this is where they should stay because they don’t really want to leave the website once they get there. They want, when they get there, they really do want you to be the person and them to be done. They want to hire you. You to take their problem and just make it all better.

Darren Wurz [00:12:28]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:12:29]:
And it’s your job to nurture them. It’s your job, when they get there, to show them why it’s you. And so we’re making content that speaks directly to the pain point, because if you’re a PI firm and they’re on your website, something bad happened to them or someone they love, and they want to feel better about the bad thing, and it’s your job to tell them, I’ve been there. I know where you are. I have stood beside you a thousand times. I know the pain you’re in.

Darren Wurz [00:12:55]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:12:56]:
Here is what we’re going to do next, and after that, here’s. And here’s what’s going to happen after that. And you’re going to speak to those pain points that they’re having in that moment, and they’re going to go, okay, I feel like this is my person, and conversely, they’re gonna hear you and you might be a little salty with your language, and they’re gonna say, that’s not my person. Equally important. Cause you don’t want to waste your time. You’re gonna go on a. Get in a really long relationship with this person. It’s a qualifying device to say it is or it isn’t.

Robert Ingalls [00:13:29]:
I think both are equally important because we’ve all been in relationships with clients that we wish we would have vetted just a little, little bit better.

Darren Wurz [00:13:36]:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Robert Ingalls [00:13:37]:
You know, kind of an unintended consequence.

Darren Wurz [00:13:39]:
Right. I love what you mentioned there. You know, it’s the, the people who listen to your show is. Is one thing, but then it’s also the guests you have on, and you’re. You’re getting to know those people. And developing that network, that’s such a powerful tool and an aspect of podcasting that I didn’t really realize when I first got into it.

Robert Ingalls [00:13:58]:
Yeah, me either. That was not part of my pitch when I started this company. I never mentioned. Oh, and you’re also going to develop this incredibly valuable network of people that you’re going to meet. And now it is. It’s front and center, for sure.

Darren Wurz [00:14:12]:
Yeah. Are there some key things that lawyers need to think about that make for a successful podcast? What are the key factors that really are going to make it a success?

Robert Ingalls [00:14:24]:
Number one’s value is when somebody clicks play, the value’s got to be there and it’s got to be quick. And one of the things I hear go wrong a lot, especially in an information style podcast. Like, if somebody has a pain point, and you’re saying, here’s what you need to do. Right after you’ve been in an accident and you start bantering about your weekend for several minutes with your co host, I think you’re doing a real disservice there, because you have to think about, who’s the listener? Where are they in this moment? Who’s that avatar? What are they struggling with? Now, if you are educating referral sources and you’ve got people subscribing to your podcast who are listening to every episode, very different. They want to know how your weekend was. They want to know how your golf game went because you’re their friend. And so it’s a very different relationship that’s valuable to them. A little bit of who you are, a little bit what you’re up to.

Robert Ingalls [00:15:20]:
But if it is for a prospect who’s in your funnel, I’m not saying don’t insert and inject personality. You should, but you don’t spend that time doing it. You get right to the value. Here’s what’s going on. And so make sure when somebody presses play that you are respecting the reason that they’re there with your content. You’re speaking directly to why they want to be there. And getting to the point, you know, I’m not saying rush through it. Don’t put an arbitrary time constraint on your content, but talk about the things that matter and get to the point and make sure that it’s valuable.

Robert Ingalls [00:15:57]:
That’s the thing. I see not done well really frequently, and I think it’s. It’s the thing that if you don’t do well, none of the other things that you do well are really going to save it. You can have the nicest 4k camera set up, and your microphone can be flawless, and no one’s gonna care. You know, what do they say? Lipstick on a pig, right? Your content is bad, and it’s not providing value, and people are gonna go elsewhere. So make sure you’re paying attention to that. And that starts before you ever sit down and press record. You’re thinking about, why am I doing this? Who am I doing it for? What do they want to know? And then on the back end, how is this all going to turn into money?

Darren Wurz [00:16:42]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:16:43]:
And making sure that you’ve thought through that. That way every piece of content you make, you don’t have to sit down and think of all that in the moment. You’ve already thought of all that, and now you just think, okay, should I do this? And then you look at all of that. And you say, oh, yeah, it meets. It meets that criteria. It’s something to check yourself against. And so if you’re doing that well, you’re in really good shape. I think you can have bad, bad sound quality as long as you can hear it.

Robert Ingalls [00:17:10]:
And you’re going to end up being a lot better off than if you don’t do the first one. Right. But also sound quality, there’s no excuse for bad sound quality today. It’s so, so, so easy to have reasonable sound quality when you’re doing something like this. I mean, honestly, like, even if you’re on your phone in a quiet space, it’s going to be better than a lot of podcasts I’ve heard. And one bad one is they’ll do it right from their, their laptop.

Darren Wurz [00:17:36]:
Oh, yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:17:36]:
And, and then, and then they’re on. They’re using some kind of resource intensive program to record. And that fan is just, oh, no, it sounds like a jet engine because it’s right beside the microphone and you’ll hear it and you’re like, what could possibly be happening in their room? But it’s because it’s right there. And so they’ve got this really terrible sound quality. They’re not hiring somebody who knows how to even make that sound a little bit better. They’re using a bad microphone that somebody online told them that they should buy. But yeah, it’d be great in a sound studio. It’s not great in your office or your spare bedroom.

Robert Ingalls [00:18:11]:
And, but for the. I mean, if you’re looking to buy a mic, buy the ATR 2100 X, it’s like $60 to $80. You plug it right into the side of your computer and it’s going to sound great. And, you know, Samsung Q two U, probably a little cheaper than that one. Those are two mics. I mean, there’s a ton of them out there. But just get a dynamic cardioid mic, you’re gonna be in really good shape. USB plugs right in your computer.

Robert Ingalls [00:18:34]:
That’s an easy one to do. Right? And, and then consistency is if you’re going to be making a product that you want to have value, you have to pay attention to it. I mean, think of the lawyer blogs. And I get it. I’ve been one of those people with the lawyer blog that never published. You write five articles in April, and then they don’t see from you again until like, what? November?

Darren Wurz [00:18:55]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:18:56]:
And that’s the good thing about podcasting, though, is it’s infinitely easier, especially if you have a production team.

Darren Wurz [00:19:01]:
It is.

Robert Ingalls [00:19:02]:
You sit down, you talk, you walk away, and you never think about it again. And so that’s because it’s so much easier to write or to talk than it is to write. Yeah, sit down. Like, if you wanted me to write, if you just sent me a questionnaire with all the questions you’re asking me now, I would have never sent you the answers. It just wouldn’t have happened.

Darren Wurz [00:19:25]:
Yeah, because I’m not gonna sit down.

Robert Ingalls [00:19:26]:
And write that back now. I may have created a loom video for you and told you all those answers.

Darren Wurz [00:19:31]:
Yeah, there you go.

Robert Ingalls [00:19:32]:
You get all that information out there and in such a really quick, easy way, 20, 30, 40 minutes, depending on what you’re talking about, and you’re done. And that content’s there. It’s evergreen. You can turn it into video clips, you can turn it into full videos, captions. You can put a transcript, you can spread it across your social media. And a lot of it’s evergreen, depending on the topic, where in five years, this is still content you can use to generate leads, to nurture leads.

Darren Wurz [00:20:00]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That consistency is really key. And keeping it, keeping it fresh, keeping it going. It’s so hard with blogs. It really is. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I’ve been on websites. You go to somebody’s website and their last blog post was from 2015. It’s a bad look.

Robert Ingalls [00:20:20]:
I just say, take the blog down. Like, kill the page. I mean, I’m not a web dev, I’m not an SEO person. So take that with a grain of salt. But just from a user perspective, I see that. I’m like, ooh.

Darren Wurz [00:20:32]:
Yeah. Or it’s like, it’s supposed to be monthly was like March and then November or something like that. Yeah, yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:20:37]:
What kind of speaks to the way that you do things? Like, well, they don’t seem like they’re on top of it, and that doesn’t mean that you’re not. You’re probably actually on top of your career more and a better lawyer because you’re not doing that. But what are people saying?

Darren Wurz [00:20:49]:
Right, right. So how do we take, you know, if you get your podcast going, you’ve got your topic, you’ve got your niche. How do you turn your listeners then into clients or referral partners? How do you bridge that connection gap?

Robert Ingalls [00:21:07]:
So when it’s clients, if we’re looking for clients as lawyers, that I think is relatively straightforward because it’s implied. Usually they say, what do I do? If XYZ should I see a chiropractor? Whatever, whatever you want to talk to them about, you give them the answer. Now I think having a call to action is fine. And say if you want to know more, give us a call. You’ve established that you know what you’re talking about. Your credentials, they know that you know, and I think it’s implied that if they got a good vibe from this, they should call you and give them that information. Make it easy, make it a click where you can click it on their mobile and it starts calling you right away. And then when it comes to referral, if you’re making something to educate referral sources, where you want them to send you business, tell them, tell them, set up a referral page as well.

Robert Ingalls [00:21:58]:
Where if you, hey, if you have a case that you want to co counsel on with us or you want to refer to us, go to www.mylawfirm.com referral. We love to have a conversation with you about that. If we think, you know, it could, if it ends up being a good fit, let them know. And I mean, every jurisdiction has different referral stuff, obviously, as far as fee splitting and things like that. But let them know that that’s a thing, that that’s something that you’re doing. Don’t be afraid to make that ask of them, but at the same time make sure that you’re making valuable content. Because Gary v. I read this book, jab, jab, jab, right hook years ago before I even understood marketing very well and I love it.

Robert Ingalls [00:22:40]:
And that’s how I operate. I ask rarely for anything. I’m not going to ask for anything at the end of this podcast. I don’t, I’m just not like, I’m not, I’m not, I’m not here to pitch myself. I’m here to talk about something, make it valuable for the listener. I hope somebody who’s listening to this gets a little information and, and if they’re just not, they want to go do it themselves. I hope I’ve given them something that they’re able to take and go do it themselves. Now there’s the, ultimately they’re going to see me as somebody who knows what they’re talking about, as an expert.

Robert Ingalls [00:23:11]:
If they in the future do want something, they’re going to say, well, that guy does know what he’s talking about. I might give him a call, I might see what he’s up to, I might send him a referral. But at the end of the day, I don’t want it to feel transactional. I’m not here. So some like, please, please hire me. I want to, I’m playing the long game. I’m here. I want to be in space.

Robert Ingalls [00:23:31]:
I love what I do. And the, the money will follow. If you’re good at what you do and you commit to it, the money’s going to be there. And so I take that approach around a lot, make sure what you’re doing is valuable and, you know, the jabs give them that value. And then every once in a while, when you have something of value, you. Michael Cowan, I’ll come back to him. He’s a really good example for this. He wrote a book and he used his podcast as a vehicle to promote the book as it was coming out.

Robert Ingalls [00:24:05]:
The book did very well. He’s generated these people who’ve been following for a long time. He’s got this consistent listenership that he is just showing up and giving value to over and over and over. And then he had an ask. And so many people, and you see this across industries, so many people, you have given them so much. You make an ask and they’re like, however much money it costs, 20, 60, 80. Yeah, of course, even if I’m not going to read it, I might buy it because how would I not help you with your book? And so you, and that’s the right hook. You throw the right hook every once in a while when you’ve established the value and you have earned your right to ask.

Robert Ingalls [00:24:42]:
That’s how I look at it.

Darren Wurz [00:24:43]:
That makes sense. Absolutely. Robert, I’m curious. In your work, you’ve been working with clients and helping them develop these podcasts. Do you have a success story, a client, a story that you can share about, you know, someone who started a podcast and then found some great results through it?

Robert Ingalls [00:25:03]:
You know, I will throw Calvin out again. I mean, he’s probably one of the best who has started a podcast and seen just tremendous value from it. But we have clients across the spectrum. So we have these firms that have five attorneys, eight attorneys, but we also have some of the biggest firms in the world with 5000 employees on multiple continents. And one of those firms, it’s a top five firm in the world, has this super niche practice area that you don’t even like. I’m a lawyer and I’d never heard of this, and, but it’s the kind of problem that doesn’t exist in your life until you are making eight figures. Like, that’s just, it’s not a problem that would even be on your radar. And they started a podcast a couple of years ago talking about it.

Robert Ingalls [00:25:52]:
Nobody else is talking about this specific thing. And they’ve all, like, over the course of the past couple years, they’ve landed clients who came to them and said, we’ve been following this podcast. We really like it, and they’ve landed clients. I’m never going to lose that client. Like, I’d have to really mess up because, hey, we’ve established a good relationship. We make really good work for them. But one of those clients, the value in one of those clients just, we are a rounding error to that value. But I see that across the spectrum, we don’t lose clients.

Robert Ingalls [00:26:26]:
And the reason we don’t, I think that’s an easy answer for anybody who understands how all this works. If the value is not there, people don’t stay. Not that I don’t think we’re making an incredibly good product. We really do. We approach it. We want to be the best in the marketplace, and, and we really lean into that where it’s not just lip service. I’m a super anxious person, and it shows through my work because cross the t’s, dot the I’s. I just really am.

Robert Ingalls [00:26:56]:
And so it’s not that I don’t think we’re doing great work. I think the medium itself is incredibly powerful, and I think that is why our company grows. We do good work. We’re doing good work behind an immensely valuable vehicle because it does so many things that are helpful for marketing. One of the biggest for lawyers is it doesn’t take a ton of their time. They don’t have to spend so much time figuring it out, driving across town, like, because in the beginning, we were doing it all in person. Now everything’s virtual.

Darren Wurz [00:27:29]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:27:30]:
So now they’re in their hotel room, and like, we had a lawyer a few months ago who was in South America in his hotel room, and he was doing episodes as he was traveling because he just took his little mic with him. And there’s so much value in that he can just pop down for 45 minutes, record his thing. He’s got this marketing. It turns into all this other stuff for him. And so they’re able to minimize their time commitment, which is the most valuable thing they have. Most valuable thing we all have. But then on the listener side, you’re not asking them for a lot when you’re giving them content. You’re not saying, stop and read.

Robert Ingalls [00:28:07]:
You’re not saying, so slow down. Watch this. You’re saying, what are you about to do?

Darren Wurz [00:28:13]:
I don’t know.

Robert Ingalls [00:28:14]:
I’ll come with you. You’re going to walk the dog. You’re going to go run, you’re going to go to the gym, you’re going to drive to work, do all those things. I will also provide value to you while you’re doing that. You are selling someone their time back when you don’t make them stop. And that is. That’s why audiobooks have blown up. That’s why podcasts have blown up.

Robert Ingalls [00:28:37]:
And that’s why business, businesses, podcasts are creating so much value, because it isn’t a huge time commitment. And honestly, building the value that you build through a podcast, when you compare that with how much it costs to make a really good one. Oh, yeah, it’s excellent.

Darren Wurz [00:28:56]:
Yeah. And you can. You can learn so much. You can be in your house vacuuming or sweeping the floor and listening to an audiobook or a podcast, and meanwhile, you’re learning about salesmanship or business fundamentals or whatever it is, and you’re just turning that extra time into more time, which is really an amazing thing. So thank you so much for highlighting that.

Robert Ingalls [00:29:22]:
Oh, yeah. It reminds me of the matrix, where they sit neo in the chair and they plug that thing into the back of his head, and they just start uploading shit into his head, and he’s like, I know kung fu, right?

Darren Wurz [00:29:33]:
Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:29:34]:
And that’s how it feels to me. We’re just. We can just beam stuff in no matter what we’re doing. I’ll go work in the yard. Like, I have put off hiring all my landscaping out just because that’s my time. Now. It’s my time to go do a few hours of work and just educate myself. And I heard Tony Robbins talk about this early on in my personal development career.

Robert Ingalls [00:29:53]:
He’s like, I read so many books because I can. Somebody sat down and synthesized an entire body of knowledge into a few hundred pages, and I can put it in my head in just a few hours.

Darren Wurz [00:30:04]:
Fantastic. Well, Robert, our time has just flown by here. It’s been great talking with you. I’ve got one more question I want to ask you, and that is, what is your millionaire mission? And what I mean by that is, what’s your big goal? What are you driving for?

Robert Ingalls [00:30:19]:
Oh, I mean, eight figures is the minimum of this business, this specific business. And honestly, it’s. I used to keep that to myself, and now it’s very strange the way mindset works, because it was mindset. I thought, oh, well, that seems like a lot of money. I don’t want to tell anybody my big, hairy, audacious goal around that. And now it seems, I don’t want to sound ridiculous, but it’s not that big of a number. Yeah, well, just when you start to understand, you know, when you see the matrix, when you back up and you actually see how all things work and you start getting in and then you just sit down and you do some rough math and you go, oh, yeah, that’s not nearly as much money as I thought super attainable, but that is, I made that goal in the beginning that this business is an eight figure business and, well, that’s. I also drew that up as my, as my fuck you number.

Robert Ingalls [00:31:21]:
Like, if I’ve got that, if I have that in the bank, I never have to do anything again in my life. I don’t want to.

Darren Wurz [00:31:26]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Ingalls [00:31:27]:
Because I can live on that interest.

Darren Wurz [00:31:29]:
Yeah. And that’s, you know, have those goals and shout it out. That’s great. You know, a lot of.

Robert Ingalls [00:31:37]:
Yeah, I’m definitely going to make that now. Like, I mean, right. It’s a foregone conclusion to me, but it’s still, I mean, I can’t stop. I can’t stop now. I still got to do it.

Darren Wurz [00:31:47]:
And this is a whole other topic. But a lot of us have grow up where we have shame around money because it’s not something it’s polite to talk about. And so we’re afraid to make those kind of bold statements. But kudos to you that you are willing to make that statement and make that claim. I love it.

Robert Ingalls [00:32:07]:
Yeah, well, you got to have something to chase for, too. And just getting your, getting your head around money and it’s not, it’s not evil. Yeah, it’s, you know, I think I heard Tom Bill, you say this first. Money just makes you more of who you already are. So, yeah, if you’re an asshole, yeah, it’s probably going to exacerbate that, that specific quality of you, so.

Darren Wurz [00:32:26]:
Yeah, for sure. Well, Robert, you know, how can our guests learn more about you or get in touch with you if they want to learn more?

Robert Ingalls [00:32:34]:
Law Pods anywhere. Type it anywhere and you’ll find us. That was very thoughtful on our spot. Lawpods.com I spend most of my social media time on LinkedIn, so feel free to connect with me there. RoBert ingalls there’s not many of us, and I can guarantee I’m the only one at this point doing podcasting. But connect with me there, shoot me a message. I’m always happy to talk. One of my favorite subjects is mental health in the law and why you should leave the law.

Robert Ingalls [00:32:59]:
But always happy to chat about podcasting, too, so don’t hesitate to reach out.

Darren Wurz [00:33:03]:
Good stuff. Thank you so much. All right, well, and we thank our listeners, too, for joining us today. We appreciate your support. If you haven’t already, please take a moment to leave a review and subscribe to the Lawyer Millionaire podcast. Your valuable feedback helps us bring you insights tailored to your needs, bridging the gap between law practice and financial success. We also encourage you to check out our website, thelawyermillionaire.com, for more resources on financial planning for law firm owners. While you’re there, sign up for our newsletter to receive the latest updates.

Darren Wurz [00:33:35]:
I’m Darren Wurz, and I’ll see you next time.