Why do law firm owners need a succession plan? What makes succession planning difficult? Can I really sell my law firm? How much is it worth? What does a succession plan look like? How is selling a law firm different from selling other businesses?
In this episode, part 1 of a mini-series on Succession Planning for Law Firm Owners, Darren Wurz answers these questions and more! Over the next several episodes, Darren and his guests will highlight the importance of succession planning for law firm owners and provide solutions to common challenges that prevent you from planning for the next phase of your career.
Darren discusses:
- Biggest barriers to succession planning
- How to align succession planning with your personal life goals
- Options for exiting your law firm (internal transition, apprenticeship, merger, and more)
- Tips for a smooth transition of leadership and ownership
- And more
Connect with Darren Wurz:
- dpw@wurzfinancialservices.com
- 30 Minute Chat With Darren
- Wurz Financial Services
- The Lawyer Millionaire: The Complete Guide for Attorneys on Maximizing Wealth, Minimizing Taxes, and Retiring with Confidence by Darren Wurz
- LinkedIn: Darren P. Wurz
- LinkedIn: The Lawyer Millionaire
- Twitter: Wurz Financial Services
Transcript:
[00:00:00] We are on a mission to help lawyers and law firm owners maximize wealth and achieve financial independence. Welcome to The Lawyer Millionaire with Darren Wurz from Wurz Financial Services. In this podcast, we will help you build wealth, minimize your taxes, and plan for retirement with money management strategies designed for the legal profession.Join us in this journey where we help you manage your money so you can make the most of your future. Start feeling confident in knowing you are well prepared for retirement and on track to financial independence. Now onto the show.
Patrice: You’ve built your law firm with your brains and time and things are going well. Well, good for you. Now, have you ever thought about when you might want to step back, take a breather, maybe even sell? Well, Darren Wurz writes about succession planning in his book, The Lawyer Millionaire, and this episode of his podcast, of the same name, by the way, [00:01:00] is the start of a mini-series on that very topic.
I’m Patrice Sikora. Darren. I would guess the idea of succession planning is not top of mind for many lawyers as they grow their firm.
Darren: You know, it often is not. That’s very true. I think the busyness of running a law firm and building your practice and trying to be a practitioner at the same time easily catches up with you.
And it’s very easy to put off the idea of, you know, planning for succession and things like that. But here’s the thing. What I’ve found is that actually, I think it’s becoming a bigger topic here more recently. It’s something I’m hearing a lot of conversations about. It’s something a lot of attorneys are talking about and it’s something that there is a lot of interest in.
You know why I know that?
Patrice: Why? Why do you know that, Darren?
Darren: Because the two episodes we’ve done so far that have been by far the most [00:02:00] popular were on the topic of succession planning. Check that out.
Patrice: Right. I wonder if it’s because demographically lawyers are aging like most of the population.
Darren: Well, that could definitely be, the way the population is shifting. You have the baby boomers that are starting to retire and maybe that is, you know, a really big factor in it. You know, that could really be part of it. I think another thing too is just people want, there’s more of a desire to retire earlier these days.
You know, not, there are still those that want to just, you know, as we said in the intro, die at their desks maybe. But I think you have a lot more people that are really interested in creating more of a life of financial independence that they want and they want to enjoy their life. They, you know you have this whole financially independent, retire early movement.
You’ve got a lot more people that are interested in trying to achieve, not trying to work and work and work until they die and make as much money as they can, but trying to maybe reach a point where [00:03:00] they can step back and enjoy life a little bit more. And so maybe that’s why it’s becoming more popular.
Patrice: All right, then let’s talk about the WHY. Why does a law firm owner need a succession plan and what makes it so hard for them?
Darren: Yeah. Well, you know, even if you don’t really want to retire early, it’s a good idea to have a succession plan and there are so many reasons why. You know, let’s just start with the accidental reasons.
You don’t know what’s gonna happen to you. Life is unexpected. You know, what if you get hit by the proverbial bus? What is gonna happen to your firm? What’s gonna happen to your clients? And that sort of thing. Do you have a succession plan in place? An emergency succession plan in place for what if something happens to you?
Patrice: Hmm, that’s a good point.
Darren: Yeah. And the reason you wanna do that is so you can protect your family. If something were to happen to you, all of a sudden, and let’s say you are a law firm owner, you’re the primary breadwinner for your [00:04:00] family, your income goes away for your family.
Patrice:Right.
Darren: So, you know, is somebody in place to be able to buy the firm and make payments to your spouse, to your family?
That would be great. You know, that would really be good. So, it’s important from the unexpected viewpoint for what happens in the intermediate term and making sure you’re protecting your family. And then of course, protecting your clients too, because you’re a fiduciary. You are supposed to do the right thing by your clients.
You wanna make sure your clients are well taken care of. Mm-hmm. Most of the attorneys I work with, they have that same mindset. They’re really in it to make a positive difference in their clients’ lives. So, who’s gonna take up for you if something happens to you?
I have heard a lot of stories of clients who have passed away unexpected, or not clients, attorneys who’ve passed away unexpectedly and didn’t have a plan in place, and then there’s a huge mess to clean up.
Patrice: Sure, [00:05:00] sure.
Darren: Ask any Bar Association they’re going to have those stories to tell you because then all of a sudden they have to scramble to figure out, okay, what happens to the client files?
And if you haven’t at least like documented what should happen in the case of your death, then how is somebody gonna walk into your office and figure out what the heck is going on?
Patrice: Yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. Very true.
Darren: It leaves just a huge mess. And so that is one very, very good reason to do the succession planning, you know, to have things documented, have things written.
Have a successor in place, have a buy-sell agreement with somebody who can step in and purchase the firm and, you know, then provide some financial stability to your family. So that’s one thing.
Patrice: Well, what makes it so hard for them to do this?
I mean, it doesn’t, the way you’ve just laid it out, it’s very logical.
Darren: It is. I think there’s a couple of reasons. You know, number one is [00:06:00] just the fact that law firm owners are busy, and if you’re a business owner and you’re an attorney, oftentimes you get into this mode where the business is running you instead of you running the business.
And, uh, if you’re in that situation where you’re not taking time out to proactively work on your business, you know, it’s important to actually set aside time to work on the business, and treat the business as an entity, treat the business as a thing that you have to take care of and you have to provide for and you wanna work on, and that sort of thing.
Otherwise, if you’re just, and you gotta be proactive about that, you know, I know you need to be working on client cases and things like that, but if that’s all you’re doing and you’re just like, you know, well, when I find time, I’ll work on the business. You’re not gonna do it.
You have to set aside time. You have to make an appointed time, maybe one day a [00:07:00] quarter or something like that. Whatever works for you. That you are gonna proactively sit down and work on your business. And if you’re not doing that, yeah, then maybe this is one of those things, business planning wise, that kind of takes the back burner, you know?
So that’s a big aspect. And the other thing is the emotional aspect. I think a lot of attorneys, a lot of us human beings, we don’t wanna think about our own demise.
Patrice: Yeah.
Darren: You know, it’s not a comfortable topic, you know, and a lot of people are really talking about it and they need to be talking about it.
And maybe if we all talked about it a little bit more, it would be a little bit less uncomfortable. So, emotionally, we don’t wanna think about it. Maybe we don’t wanna talk about it as much. The other thing too is I think as, and this doesn’t have to be the case. We equate succession planning with retirement and getting old and no longer being an attorney.
That doesn’t [00:08:00] have to be the case. As we were just talking about, you could potentially sell your practice and continue working in some capacity, you know, so it doesn’t have to be that case, and I know if you’re a law firm owner, you’re an attorney. You’re an attorney, you know, this is part of who you are, is your identity.
It’s what makes you, you. You know what I mean? And, and that’s a very difficult thing to think about retiring and no longer practicing law. That’s, for some people, that’s a very difficult thing to get over. They can’t imagine that. I can’t imagine, you know, not practicing law anymore. Right?
It would be an identity crisis.
Patrice: Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of retirees go through that. So when it’s your firm, your baby, I should think that it’s even a bigger impact on your psyche there.
Darren: Definitely, definitely. But you’re so right. We all go through it. So, it’s important to have a real plan for what you’re gonna do in retirement, you know.
[00:09:00] I mean, what retirement, it’s not just retirement, it’s your next phase. You know, it’s your next stage. It’s your next part of your career. Uh, so it’s important to have something that’s going to occupy your time. If you’re used to working 80 hours a week and then you go to not working, uh, you’re gonna be very lost.Yeah. And trying to figure out what’s going on with your life, so you gotta have something, you gotta have some kind of hobby or pursuit that you’re gonna do or engage in. Uh, that’s gonna take up your time. Because otherwise yeah, you’re gonna have that identity crisis. So that’s why it’s so difficult.
It’s not something people wanna talk about for those reasons, but I think we need to actually get excited about it. You know, let’s get excited about succession planning.
Patrice: And what does a succession plan look like?
Darren: Right. Yeah. So, here’s the truth, it can look like whenever you want it to [00:10:00] look like.
Absolutely.
Patrice: Why did I think I knew you were gonna say that.
Darren: There’s no wrong or right way to create a succession plan. It can be whatever you want it to be. So, when I say let’s get excited about it, it’s not like, oh goodness, you know, one day I’m gonna have to retire and I gotta think about who’s gonna maybe take over my practice. Let’s ditch the depressing narrative.
And let’s start to think about actually, instead of the depressing retirement, no longer practicing law narrative, let’s replace that with succession planning is all about creating the life that you want. Okay? So, you know, right now you’re working on your firm, you’re building your business and things like that.
Okay. But at some point, what do you want life to look like? You know.
Patrice: It’s not just your life, it’s the life of your [00:11:00] firm too.
Darren: The life of your firm. What kind of firm do you want to have? What kind of firm do you wanna run? How do you want your role in that firm to look? You know, how do you, how do you want your daily routines to look?
Because succession planning could be maybe not about necessarily finding one person to purchase your firm, and then you go on about your merry way. Maybe it’s about bringing in a couple of partners who become owners. Maybe it’s about developing a leadership team. You know, finding a CEO and a CFO, creating an executive team that is going to run your firm.
And then you’re able to step back into more of a big picture leadership kind of role. You know, maybe that’s what succession planning looks like for you. So, there are so many ways that you can create a succession [00:12:00] plan, and I encourage all of our listeners to think about designing a succession plan that’s going to help them meet their personal goals.
And so you have to start there. You have to start with, what do I want my life to look like? What do I, what kind of life do I want to enjoy with my family? How do I wanna really be spending my time? Do I want to be getting up at 6:00 AM every day and going to the office and working till eight o’clock at night?
Maybe not. Right? So, let’s start thinking about how we can craft and design a firm where maybe you still have a role. Now, there are other people that maybe they want to get out of law altogether; and that’s cool too! Maybe that’s your “what you want your life to look like”; but it’s all about you and it’s all about there.
That’s what everyone wants to hear, right? It’s all about you.
Patrice: Well, let’s dive into that.What are some different ways you can actually create this? How do you sell your firm? How do you create [00:13:00] a plan where maybe you’ve sold the firm, but you’re still there?
What do you do?
Darren: Yeah, absolutely. Well, there, you know, there’s a few ways that you could set it up. So, let’s kind of walk through some of these ways. The first way, which kind of seems the most obvious, would be to just find an outright buyer, right? Find someone who is going to buy your firm from you for a certain price.
Okay? So that’s, you know, that is the typical business plan. You know, you want to sell your firm. You’re gonna find a buyer and they’re gonna buy it from you. Okay, well, we call that an outright purchase. That may work with maybe some, you know, a franchise or something that is, you know, not tied to you as the business owner.
But that is a very difficult thing to pull off in the legal world because oftentimes your clients have personal relationships with you. Maybe the firm is really tied to your identity. So, an outright [00:14:00] sale as a one-time transaction really doesn’t make sense in the legal world. Maybe it can happen and I don’t wanna rule it out, but it would be very difficult to pull off because you wanna make sure that the firm is gonna continue, it’s gonna provide value to whoever’s buying it.
And you want it to be attractive to that buyer. So, oftentimes what needs to happen is you have to stick around for a little while, and oftentimes it has to be more of a slow transition. Okay? So here are some ways that law firms typically what I have seen will structure a succession plan. One of the most popular ways is simply an internal transition.
In an internal transition, you are going to identify a successor from within your firm and that is great and a very easy way to do it. There’s a lot of advantages to doing it that way because, you know, if you already have somebody in your firm who has aspirations to be an owner, [00:15:00] great.
You get to know them. You build a relationship with them. Your clients already get to know them. They’re already part of the firm. They’re already part of the firm culture, you know, and so it makes the handoff very smooth. Okay. So, an internal transition is a great way to do it. So, if you have other attorneys that work in your firm, maybe you can start by trying to do, you know, figure out which of those attorneys do have aspirations to be owners.
Not every attorney wants to be an owner, and it’s important to recognize that, you know, some attorneys, they just wanna work. They want to come to work, they wanna do their work, they wanna put money in their retirement plan, they wanna go home to their family and they wanna retire one day. And that’s fine.
Patrice:That’s fair.
Darren: Yes. And that is great. I’m here for that. But then there are others who want to be owners and they enjoy that. It’s a whole different beast being an owner of a law firm [00:16:00] versus being an attorney because there’s so many things you gotta think about.
Marketing and business financials and hiring, and you know, all of that stuff. There’s so much more that goes into it. So yeah, look through your current staff. Find out are there people here who do have those aspirations? Maybe start thinking that direction. So an internal transition, that’s one way you could do it.
Another way you could do it would be similar, what we might call an apprenticeship, right? So maybe you don’t have anyone who works for you, you know, maybe you are a true solo attorney, right? You’re, it is just you. Or maybe there’s no one in your firm who has any kind of aspirations to be an owner.
So you know an apprenticeship model, obviously, it is what it says. You know, you would bring somebody in to work in your firm as an associate attorney who would one day become the owner. So somebody who you’re gonna groom for [00:17:00] ownership. And the timeline could be whatever you want it to be.
A typical timeline would be maybe three to five years, something like that. So you would find a buyer outside someone who wants to own a practice. And you would bring them into the firm, get them working with the clients, get the clients familiar with them, really make them a part of the culture, a part of the leadership, and then maybe kind of slowly give them leadership responsibilities.
And then, then you would eventually pass on the ownership to them. And then you can step back and maybe continue working a little bit with the firm to ensure there’s a smooth transition. And then eventually, Move on to other things. So that would be an easy way you could do that also. Okay, so we have an internal transition, apprenticeship.
Okay, so now what else? What else is there? Well, here’s a very cool idea. Sometimes we call it a merger. Okay? You could think of it as a merger. [00:18:00] So here’s what’s gonna happen. Instead of finding one attorney who wants to buy your firm, you’re gonna find another firm that wants to buy your firm.
Patrice:Hmm. Ah, very interesting.
Darren: Okay. So maybe there’s a bigger firm that wants to buy your practice. This is great for a number of reasons. They have the capital. That would be one reason.
Patrice: Yes.
Darren: They have the capital, they have the structure, they have the stability that you’re looking for, and all of that is very attractive.
So, I’ve seen clients of mine that have done this, clients of mine have done this years before they plan to retire. Wait a minute. How does that go? Well, here’s how it works, right? You have a small practice, you sell to a bigger practice, you become a part of their practice, and then you continue working as an [00:19:00] employee of that firm for a number of years.
So, this is a great way for you to maybe make this, make the transaction happen so you can get some capital for retirement. You can get the burden of law firm ownership off of your shoulders, and maybe you can continue doing what you love for a period of time for as long as you want, really, and continue working as an employee of the new firm.
Patrice: Darren, when, when you go with this kind of option, how old are you? How long have you been in your practice?
Because here you’ve established your own firm and now you’re selling it to somebody, but you’re going to work for them. How does that sit?
Darren: Yeah, that, so that can be, that can be tricky, right?
Patrice: Yeah.
Darren: Maybe you, maybe that makes your skin crawl, you know.
Patrice: A little bit.
Darren: You don’t want to go from being an owner to being an employee.
The other option is maybe you are just an of counsel attorney or something like that. Where you are [00:20:00] on payroll, but you would want to obviously negotiate your contract in such a way that you are maybe working with your existing clients. But there’s a clear understanding between you and the bigger firm as to what you will and will not do.
Patrice: All right?
Darren: Right. So, you can negotiate that and you will want to definitely think carefully about what you want your role to look like because obviously you want some freedom and flexibility. So maybe your terms are “Okay. I’m gonna sell to you. I’m gonna continue working with these clients and slowly make them a part of the new firm. But I’m only gonna work three days a week and here are my hours.“You know what I mean?
Patrice: Mm-hmm.
Darren: Something like that. So you, so you’re real specific, “I’m not gonna go to 7:30 in the morning meetings”, you know what I mean? Uh, so yes. Great, great point. You wanna make sure that you are clear about what your roles and responsibilities will be.
You’re not gonna be like uh, an attorney fresh out [00:21:00] of law school coming in to work for the firm.
Patrice: Right. Right.
Darren: But typically, I do see clients doing that maybe in their fifties, and maybe it’s a great fit. You know, maybe you are in a place in your life where you’re like, I’m tired of being a law firm owner.
Patrice: Yeah. I can believe it.
Darren: This is a lot of work.
I just want to enjoy some time with my family, get some money from selling my practice and still make some money as an attorney. And this is a great option for you. And it’s all about firm culture. You know, you gotta obviously find a bigger firm that you’re gonna fit well with and you’re not gonna be unhappy with.
So, if you do go that route, maybe there’s a dating period where you’re kind of getting to know the firm. So with all of these different options, you wanna make sure that you have an emergency exit plan. Have it spelled out in your agreements, you wanna make sure everything is written down.
Because what if, partway into the transition, you’re like, oh [00:22:00] no, this is a mistake.
Patrice: Yeah
Darren: Right. You wanna have a way out. So, make sure that you do have that spelled out in writing that there is a certain way that you can undo things if absolutely necessary. I think that’s important. Now, one that we didn’t mention and uh, this is kind of a new idea, is a share purchase.
This is kind of how traditional law firms would work, but we don’t want to be like the traditional big law firms. In the traditional big law firms, ownership and advancement as an attorney is all confused because what, here’s what happens, right? You do good work.
You get promoted to partner and all of a sudden you become an owner. So your reward for being a great attorney is to become part owner. Maybe you didn’t wanna be an owner, you know, and those two things maybe shouldn’t be correlated. But you can do something similar, right? So maybe your law firm is structured as a corporation [00:23:00] and maybe you have attorneys within the firm who want to be owners.
If there are attorneys in the firm that wanna be owners, you could have them become owners by purchasing shares in the corporation to become part owners just like any other business. Wow.
Patrice: Do you need a financial advisor to help you set that up or do you need a lawyer to help you set that up?
Darren: You need several advisors. Yeah.
Patrice: Yeah.
Darren: You need probably someone like me, you need lawyers. You need people who can value the firm, provide evaluation so you can determine what is the price per share that would need to be paid to buy a percentage ownership in the firm. But yeah this is one way you could do it.
And the advantage to having your succession plan kind of structured that way is that it would allow you to kind of slowly move out of leadership. So [00:24:00] maybe you sell a third to one attorney who wants to be an owner, another third to another attorney who wants to be an owner. Now there’s three attorneys each with a third ownership in the partnership, and then you can maybe sell your remaining third at a future date to those two attorneys and then they become owners of the practice. Right?
So, it could be kind of a slower transition over time like that. And I think that would be very attractive because it would allow you to continue to have a role and have a voice in the practice, but it would allow the other new owners to solely rise to the occasion to be leaders and to be, you know, exercise their roles and responsibilities as owners of the practice.
But that’s how it should be done. You know, ownership should be purchased because that’s what you’re doing. You’re selling part of your business. And, um, that should be the way that owners and, you know, attorneys become partners in a firm.
You know, that’s the way [00:25:00] normal businesses are structured, and that’s the way businesses, it’s a successful way to pass on ownership that way.
Patrice: So it sounds like really selling a law firm is not that different from selling another kind of business.
Darren: It really shouldn’t be. The only thing that would make it different and makes it tricky is that law firms are more difficult to sell because of a couple of things.
You have a limited pool of buyers. It’s only attorneys that can own law firms in most places. I think Arizona….
Patrice: Did not know that.
Darren: Right. There are some jurisdictions that are playing around with tweaking the rules that would maybe allow non-attorneys to own law firms. I don’t know of any that have made official rules yet, but that’s something that could be coming down the road.
But for now, in most places, you have to be an actual practicing attorney to own a law firm. Yeah.
Patrice: Interesting.
Darren: The other thing, of course, is that you have a lack of liquidity. [00:26:00] So if I buy a law firm, and it’s usually a one-time transaction. In most places when you sell your firm, that’s it.
You can’t then go and start another firm. A lot of jurisdictions limit you that way. So, your selling of your practice really has to be tied to retirement. So that can be a very limiting factor. And then of course, there’s liquidity issues. You know, if I’m buying a firm, I’m not gonna be able to turn around and sell it tomorrow.
Patrice: Right. Right.
Darren: I’m in, I’m stuck. You know what I mean? So, that makes people wary. And of course, then there’s valuation concerns. A big part of what makes the firm valuable is will the clients continue with the new firm under the new leadership? That’s a big question. So usually in most cases, these succession plans are slow transitions over time so that you can slowly introduce clients to the new owners.
[00:27:00] You can have owners become familiar with the practices and procedures and that. Then you need the previous owners, the retiring owners, to stick around for a little while to ensure the transition is successful. So, there’s a lawyer, law firm owner, solo attorney in Northern Kentucky.Sold his practice to a younger attorney just starting out, and he doesn’t come in, you know, he has sold the practice, but he’s still available to clients who may want to talk to him. So, he’s not doing work on a day-to-day basis, but if somebody wants to chat with him, somebody has concerns, they can call him up and he can say, you’re in great hands. I’ve worked with a new owner for a long time. I’ve vetted him. He’s a great attorney.
He’s gonna take really good care of you, right?
Patrice:Right.
Darren: And so then, that’s kind of what needs to happen. The old, I won’t wanna say old. The previous owners [00:28:00] need to stick around for a little while and be available.
And then they can kind of more slowly move on to other things, but that really is important to ensure the success of the transition.
Patrice: Now you mentioned, uh, liquidity there. How does a buyer come up with the money to buy a practice if they wanna buy it outright?
Darren:Yeah, that’s obviously the biggest question.
The money. And that’s the whole reason you’re doing this, you know, is so that you can obtain some value for the firm that you’ve created and the blood, sweat, and tears that you’ve put into it. So, could you get a loan? Well, you could, but banks are probably gonna be very reluctant to lend you money to buy a law practice. It’s usually not what happens. There’s so many issues.
There’s so many, you know, worries that they would have over that. Typically, what we most often see is that in it being a slow transition, [00:29:00] maybe it’s kind of an installment plan or kind of an earn out, right? And so, here’s an example. You have an attorney who buys a practice from a retiring attorney, and then the price is going to be, let’s say, 50% of gross revenue for five years.
Okay? So, that way there is incentive for both the new owner and the selling owner to make sure it is successful. They both wanna maximize the profitability of the firm so that they can both get as much money as possible.
Patrice: Mm-hmm.
Darren: You know, so that you have some skin in the game on both sides.
Usually that is one of the most, uh, effective ways to do it because a young attorney coming in isn’t gonna have the capital.
Patrice: Right.
Darren: And no one is gonna want to just write you a check for the entire firm [00:30:00] and hand it to you.
Patrice: That would be nice.
Darren: Yes, that would be nice. But they’re going to, you know, they need some time.
They wanna make sure that you’re gonna still be involved because they wanna make sure that it’s gonna continue to be the firm it was, and even better. After you have retired, they wanna make sure that it’s gonna be profitable for them. So, I think that that’s usually one of the most effective ways to do it, is a payment over time.
If you’re emerging with a new firm, they might do a similar thing where they pay you. It might not be a percentage, but maybe it’s a set dollar amount over a period of years. And that could be a way to do it there. Another way to do it is if you have other attorneys in the firm who have built up balances in their 401(k).
They could use their 401(k) by taking a loan of their 401(k) to fund the purchase of shares of the [00:31:00] business. That’s, uh, one way that, uh, that you could do it as well. So that is obviously a big component of the succession plan and really determines, in many cases, how you’re gonna design it.
Patrice: All right. This is part of a mini-series.
Darren: Yes.
Patrice: What is going to be the topic for the next episode?
Darren: Yeah, so this is great. I’m really excited to do this. We’re gonna have a lot of great guests on over the next few episodes. Our next guest is Jeremy Poock. He is the founder of a firm called Senior Attorney Match. And he does this a lot. He actually creates and designs succession plans for attorneys.
A lot of what he works with, I believe, are attorneys who are merging with a larger firm. So, we’re gonna hear a lot about that. We’re gonna hear a lot about his experience designing and creating succession plans and get to pick his brain and it’ll be a great time. Yeah.
Patrice: Alright. And how can listeners reach you, [00:32:00] Darren?
Darren: The best way to reach me is to head on over to thelawyermillionaire.com. There you can download your free guide to retirement planning for law firm owners. You can check out the book and if you wanna talk to me, you can schedule a phone call or a virtual meeting with me right on the page.
Patrice: All right, so listeners, follow this podcast that way, you will know when the next episode in this miniseries is ready for you. And of course, share with others. Thanks for being with us.
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