Lessons on Growth from Inc 5000 Law Firm Owner Eric Toscano (Ep. 107) |

Scaling a law firm requires more than just attracting new clients; it’s about building a robust team and refining your business strategy. On the latest episode of The Lawyer Millionaire Podcast, we sat down with Eric Toscano, founder and CEO of the rapidly growing Tenant Law Group. Eric shares how he transformed his firm into one of the fastest-growing private law firms in the United States, a consistent presence on the Inc 5000 list. Here’s a closer look at the strategies that fueled his success and can guide your law firm to new heights.

Recognizing Disruption as Opportunity

Eric kicked off our interview by discussing the evolving legal landscape, particularly the entry of corporate giants like KPMG into the legal industry. While some see this as a threat to midsize and boutique firms, Eric perceives any form of disruption as an opportunity. For law firm owners, the key takeaway is to adapt and look for innovative ways to leverage market changes to benefit your firm and clients.

The Power of Vision-Driven Growth

According to Eric, scalable growth is deeply rooted in the owner’s vision. Initially driven by personal circumstances, his motivation evolved to focus on delivering exceptional services and making a meaningful impact on the lives of others. Whether you’re just starting or looking to expand, take time to define your vision. Ensure it evolves with your experiences and the needs of your team and clients. A dynamic vision keeps the fire alive for law firm owners, preventing complacency and fueling continued progress.

Hiring with Intent

Recruiting top talent remains one of the biggest challenges for law firms. Eric distinguishes his hiring process by seeking candidates who match the firm’s needs, focusing less on prestigious academic backgrounds and more on skills like negotiation and problem-solving. He now prioritizes lateral hires with proven track records of success in civil court settlements, emphasizing the need for candidates who can contribute significantly from day one.

Leveraging Data and Systems

Law firm owners can massively benefit from data-driven decision-making. Eric shares that implementing a strategic business framework like Vern Harnish’s Scaling Up has been instrumental for Tenant Law Group. This involves not only establishing key performance indicators (KPIs) but also aligning daily tasks with long-term company objectives. By maintaining a strong focus on critical numbers and systemic processes, law firms can optimize their operations for growth and sustainability.

Creating a Lasting Impact

Beyond profitability, Eric’s goal is to amplify the positive impact his firm has on clients and communities. For other law firm owners, this means thinking beyond immediate financial gains. Align your firm’s purpose with genuine client benefits to enhance loyalty and market reputation.

Set Audacious Goals

Eric’s strategic implementation of a BHAG—a big, hairy, audacious goal—demonstrates the importance of setting long-term, ambitious objectives for law firms. This type of goal-setting fosters innovation and keeps the team focused on achieving remarkable feats. It serves as a guiding star for all strategic planning, ensuring efforts are aligned toward transformational growth.

By adopting these insights, law firm owners can transform their practices into thriving, high-impact businesses.

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Linkedin: Eric Toscano
Tenant Law Group

About our guest:

Eric brings more than twenty years of entrepreneurial and legal experience to his role as Chief Executive Officer of Tenant Law Group, a law firm recognized by the San Francisco Business Times’ as one of the Fastest Growing Private Companies in the Bay Area in 2024; by Law Firm 500 for the past five years as among the 100 fastest growing law firms in the United States; by Inc. 5000 in 2022 and 2024 as one of the fastest growing privately held companies in the United States; and by Great Place to Work® every year since 2021 as a Great Place to Work. In less than nine years, Eric has grown Tenant Law Group from a de facto solo practice to the largest law firm in California (and possibly in the United States) dedicated exclusively to the representation of tenants.

Named a Super Lawyers® Rising Star every year from 2015 to 2019, and a Northern California Super Lawyer® every year since 2021, Eric is passionate about entrepreneurship, trial advocacy, and social justice. Although he was a practicing attorney in the firm from 2016 to 2020, he now dedicates 100% of his time to running the firm.

As Chief Executive Officer, he focuses primarily on leading a team of nearly fifty legal professionals, recruiting and retaining top legal talent from around the world, attracting and onboarding new clients, building the firm’s technological infrastructure, overseeing all firm finances, and continuing to scale the firm to serve approximately 17 million California renters.

Born in the South Bay and raised in the Central Valley and Wine Country, Eric earned an undergraduate degree in economics from Stanford University, where he was active in Stanford Student Enterprises (a student entrepreneurship organization); studied overseas in Florence, Italy for a quarter; and played on the Stanford Rugby Team.

Before attending law school, Eric spent three years living in Italy. There, he founded an English school (The English Language Institute of Montebelluna) in Montebelluna, Italy, and launched an online company helping people with Italian ancestry become recognized as Italian Citizens (Italian Citizenship & Genealogy Services).

He earned his law degree from UC Davis School of Law, where he was Student Bar Association President, a member of the Moot Court Board, and one of ten students in his class selected for membership in The Order of Barristers, a national honor society dedicated to excellence in oral advocacy. During law school, Eric also worked as an intern in the Government Division of the Office of the City Attorney of San Francisco, and as a judicial extern to the Honorable Morrison C. England, Jr. of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of California.

After law school, he spent two and a half years working on behalf of large technology companies as a patent litigator for an international law firm. Although he found the work interesting, he was frustrated by the lack of trained management and clear expectations (beyond billable hours) and by a culture he felt was driven by organizational hierarchy and office politics.

When he founded Tenant Law Group (originally, Toscano Law Group) in January 2016, his goal was to build a different type of law firm: one that encouraged critical thinking and innovation; that focused on the personal, professional, and financial growth of its team members; that operated by clearly documented policies, systems, and procedures; that offered a positive, supportive environment and took no team member for granted; and that was committed to growing rapidly to serve an expansive and underserved clientele (tenants).

While an attorney at Tenant Law Group, Eric dedicated 100% of his practice to tenant rights. He defended tenants in unlawful detainer (eviction) proceedings and pursued affirmative matters against landlords on behalf of tenants arising out of illegal evictions from rent-controlled apartments, harassment, defective conditions and repair issues, rodent and other pest infestations, floods, and fires.

Eric has given back to the legal community through his involvement with the Bar Association of San Francisco (BASF), San Francisco’s Eviction Defense Collaborative, and his alma mater, UC Davis School of Law (King Hall). He served on BASF’s Barristers Club’s Board of Directors for two years (and as Board Vice President for one of them); and was named a 2014 Barrister of the Year. From 2015 to 2019, he served on the Board of Directors of the Eviction Defense Collaborative, a San Francisco nonprofit that helps low-income tenants fight unlawful detainer (eviction) lawsuits. Since April 2020, he has served on King Hall’s Alumni Association Board of Directors, and is currently serving his second three-year term. He routinely returns to King Hall as an alumni panelist for the school’s Legal Research & Writing and Lawyering Process courses. He has also spoken to students at UC College of the Law (formerly UC Hastings) about entrepreneurship and tenant rights law.

Outside of work, Eric enjoys spending time with his wife and two young sons, visiting his family in the Wine Country, traveling, camping, training for half marathons, and volunteering as Cubmaster for his older son’s Cub Scout Pack. He speaks fluent Italian, conversational Spanish, and some French.

Hobbies & Activities:

Hiking
Star Wars
Training for marathons

Transcript:

Darren Wurz [00:00:00]:
Scaling a law firm isn’t about getting more clients. It’s about building and inspiring a team. Welcome to The Lawyer Millionaire, helping law firm owners scale profitably, escape the daily grind and turn their firm into a wealth building asset. Hiring is one of the biggest challenges law firm owners face. And second is delegation. Today’s guest shares how data structure and an inspiring vision helped him solve both and take his firm from solo to to scale in less than 10 years. Today’s guest is Eric Toscano, the founder and CEO of Tennant Law Group in California, one of the fastest growing law firms in the United States, having appeared on the Inc 5000 list multiple times.

Intro [00:00:52]:
We are on a mission to help lawyers and law firm owners maximize wealth and achieve financial independence. Welcome to the Lawyer Millionaire with Darren Wurz from Wurz Financial Services.

Darren Wurz [00:01:06]:
All right, Eric, it’s so great to be with you here today. When I met you in San Francisco, I said to myself we’ve got to have this guy on the show. And here are some of his insights. I want to dive into one controversial question before and get your take on this before we kind of get into you and your journey. You know, it’s been all over the news in the legal world. KPMG’s recent move into the legal industry trying to compete with traditional law firm owners. Some see this as the beginning of the end for midsize and boutique firms. Others think it’s just hype.

Darren Wurz [00:01:41]:
As the founder of a rapidly growing niche firm, what do you see? Do you see this as a threat, an opportunity, Just another corporate overreach? What’s your take?

Eric Toscano [00:01:50]:
I see any disruption as an opportunity. I know there’s opportunities in there. And candidly in some ways I think it would be better for the consumer, for the lawyers because at least in California, it’s crazy. The State Bar Act, I was reviewing this recently. It’s outdated and I don’t think this is what was intended. But the letter of the law actually says that to be an officer of a professional corporation in California, you have to be an active licensed member. Which can’t make sense to me because is the state bar really expecting that law firms in California have their cfo, have to have gone through law school like that is the qualification for being a functional CFO or chief people officer or chief operating officer, like that cannot be the case. The point being bringing experts outside and there’s no reason why you can’t bring those experts in right now.

Eric Toscano [00:02:39]:
But non-lawyer ownership? I don’t know. I think my take is I’m a realist. And the State Bar, let’s be real, what it is, it’s monopoly, it’s a guild, it’s going to protect its own members. And I, I don’t know what ended up happening. The conversations that went on. I realized that we’re in a state that hosts Silicon Valley and a lot of VC.

Darren Wurz [00:03:01]:
Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:03:02]:
But I don’t, I don’t know. I just don’t know. I mean like the State Bar is made up of its members and the members will want to maintain that monopoly. So do I think it’s better for consumers to have non lawyer ownership? I think it probably is going to be better in the long term for consumers. Is it inevitable in California? I don’t know. I kind of think that like as California, New York go, so go the rest of the states. So I’m not sure. It’s interesting.

Eric Toscano [00:03:25]:
So I’m watching with keen interest. I also do think that there are probably some opportunities out there currently. Like I know that hospitals and nurses and doctors who own their own firms also have the support of. They’re subject to the same licensing requirements for ownership as I am as an attorney. Yet there are ways that private money is going into those firms. I, I’m not an expert in that area, but I’m very curious about learning more. So I’m watching it with a lot of interest and I don’t know that that directly answers everything. I don’t claim to be an expert in that area, but I’m not.

Eric Toscano [00:04:01]:
I’m just, I’m just patiently observing and trying to make sure I’m a couple steps ahead and ready for whatever may happen either way.

Darren Wurz [00:04:07]:
Yeah. You know, I don’t think it says I get the fear around it. I don’t think it has to be as scary. There’s always been competition. There’s always going to be competition. And with you, you’ve kind of grown into that corporate structure scaling and growing your law firm. So I want to ask you about that. You know, Tenant Law Group has been ranked among the fastest growing private companies in the US Multiple times.

Darren Wurz [00:04:32]:
To what do you owe this level of growth?

Eric Toscano [00:04:37]:
It’s an interesting question. I think a lot of it, I think it’s a lot of factors. But I will say I think it does ultimately start and end with the vision of the owner. And for me, what has been a motivating factor has changed over the years. And I’ve said this repeatedly, you know, when it so January of 2016, I’m just out on my own. My motivating My motivating factor to build something that was sustainable was a six month old, a partner who wasn’t working at the time, and some debt from having just recently exited a partnership. That was my why at the beginning and as things. But I had at that moment joined an organization of lawyer entrepreneurs.

Eric Toscano [00:05:18]:
And you’d mentioned earlier that, you know, you’ve interviewed other members of how to manage a small law firm and the ethos, I mean, it’s just the culture there is about growth and all the benefits that come along with it. So from day one, like literally I joined this organization January of 2016, the same month I launched my firm. And you know, I’m constantly surrounding myself with other entrepreneurs and seeing how much better life can be than the hustle market sell that you kind of have to be doing for that first zero to. Yeah, you know, I don’t know, arguably that’s certainly the first 0 to 250k in revenue and that I was doing for that first year. But you know, over time I didn’t, I wasn’t even exclusively a tenant rights firm when I first started out. I was doing different practice area. And when I made the decision to focus on this one niche practice area and do this one thing, but do it really well, it was 2017. I realized the scope of the opportunity because there weren’t many law firms out there.

Eric Toscano [00:06:15]:
There still aren’t that many law firms out there doing the kinds of services that we do, which are contingency work on behalf of tenants who’ve suffered either an economic or bodily, physical, mental, emotional energy injury. I mean, there’s 17 million tenants in California. 17 million.

Darren Wurz [00:06:30]:
Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:06:30]:
And you know, it’s funny, I get the question, it’s like, so when are you going to expand to other states? I was like, dude, when we’ve exhausted 17 million is when we’re gonna. I mean, maybe, you know, I have my eyes. Designs on New York. I think that would be another great place to expand to. We already have a couple lawyers in our firm who are licensed in New York. I’d have to sit for the New York bar, which would be interesting. My age and having been out as long as I have been. But so I would say, you know, succinctly, the, the opportunity, my interest in growth and all.

Darren Wurz [00:07:01]:
Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:07:02]:
You know, on all definitions of that word, you know, what it means, you know, having grown my business, what it means in terms of opportunities, economic for my team members, for my family and you know, the ability to serve and make a bigger impact because, you know, I think we as entrepreneurs at some point reach a level where we have a lot of our needs met. But that’s not really what drives, drives me anymore. For me, it’s about providing more opportunities for my team at this point and serving more of the population that needs the service. There’s just too many people out there that are experiencing some light conditions.

Darren Wurz [00:07:40]:
So yeah, California for tenants, huge. New York. Not all states probably have the same opportunity, but yeah, definitely you’re in the right spot. So. And it’s interesting to hear you say that your motivation evolves. Right. You know, a lot of people are motivated by growing the organization and the mission that the organization has. And it becomes less about your own personal needs and more about this thing that you’re building.

Darren Wurz [00:08:10]:
So you’ve found that to be the case for you?

Eric Toscano [00:08:14]:
Yeah, I would say, like I try to take a good hard look at least once a year. I mean I’m, I’m sort of, I now have like a planning system in place quarterly where I’m looking out ahead a year and a half. And I’m always thinking a year and a half to two years. I mean, I have my longer term plans, but I literally have a calendar mapped out. What am I going to be doing on a day to day basis for the next, you know, for the next 18 months? Always looking how to, at a minimum a year. But that’s kind of the range I’m looking at. But making sure that my why is evolving with like what’s going on in my life and that it’s actually meaningful enough because, you know, you’ve interviewed, I’m sure, enough entrepreneurs to know that if you lose the fire, I mean that’s, that’s everything, right? I mean if you get complacent, if you get lazy, if you get satisfied. So I’ve tried to make myself aware of that and tried to continually, you know, challenge myself.

Eric Toscano [00:09:06]:
Like what? Like this thing that motivated me two years ago, you know, it’s not really there anymore. You know, like whatever I wanted, maybe I wanted to hit this milestone for some reason, just for whatever. And now it becomes a little bit more about, like I said, you know, it’s the opportunity for people, it’s. For me, it’s leaving my mark. I mean, in not for nothing like my birthday, I’m gonna be 48 this year. I was fortunate to have two grandparents around one till 98, one till 93. So I was like, okay, probably around the halfway point, knock on wood. If I stay healthy and it’s never too early to start Thinking about what kind of legacy you want to leave, right, in terms of how you’ll be remembered.

Eric Toscano [00:09:42]:
And it’s a way to positively impact a lot of people. I always tell solo attorneys there’s absolutely nothing wrong, and I have huge respect for half the lawyers in the US Are solos. I forget what the statistic is, and that’s fine. But for me personally, when tenant law group was Eric and a remote assistant, you know, I have 20 hours a week to give to California tenants, right? Not a lot. I’m limited to a fairly small number of people that I can help. And when you’re able to leverage, you know, a team and not just lawyers, but support staff that can take the place and make those lawyers, you know, have the same level of efficiency as, you know, three solos with no support staff, you know, you can make a much bigger difference. I’m speaking in the abstract, of course. Those aren’t measurable statistics, but the idea is, you know, true.

Darren Wurz [00:10:36]:
Yeah, no, it’s such a great point. So many people stay stuck at that stage of, no one can do it as good as me. But you’re one person. And if you really want to have an impact, you have to leverage other people. You have limited time, right. You might be the world’s best expert, but even so, you’re only one person, right? So you’ve got to bring those other people in. It sounds like you were able to overcome that. Did you ever feel that way initially, or was that never a concern for you, that, you know, the challenge of delegating and allowing others to take over the legal work?

Eric Toscano [00:11:15]:
I’m as much a perfectionist as the next lawyer, so I think that’s a trait a lot of us share. It was one of the hardest things to do, is to relinquish control because, you know, at some point, and this is the. This is the truth. To lawyers that ask me, like I’m going to. I don’t want to sugarcoat it. I’ll just be honest with you. You are going to mess up your first hire. You’re going to make some really dumb.

Eric Toscano [00:11:40]:
You’re going to make some mistakes that you’re going to make the best decisions you can at the time with the information you have. And, you know, don’t be too hard on yourself. But looking back, you going to make some bad mistakes, some really bad mistakes. You’re going to mishire. You’re going to hire the wrong people. You’re not going to set them up for success. You’re going to probably have some difficult separations. Along the way, it’s just going to happen.

Eric Toscano [00:12:00]:
And you know what. And what also is true is that you’ll never get beyond the hustle market sell phase. You’ll never be able to make a bigger impact if you don’t go down that path. And I will say that, you know, the hiring and the relationships, including those that are, you know, that we’ve parted ways over time, that’s really, I think what’s been the biggest for me, what’s made me feel like I’ve grown the most as a. As a business owner, is being able. I mean, there’s no right way. You know, everyone kind of has their own method for hiring, retaining, coaching, managing, supervising. But I mean, it’s.

Eric Toscano [00:12:33]:
It’s been great because it’s. Those are skills that when you’re more successful at applying them internally, they benefit you in other areas of your life. So, for example, outside of work, I’m a Cub Master. I’m very involved in my son’s Cub mount, Cub Scouting. You know, those are kindergarten.

Darren Wurz [00:12:49]:
Okay. Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:12:49]:
And wrangling, you know, parents that have their own, you know, expectations of what’s going to happen for their kids and, you know, managing a bunch of, like, kids bouncing around. You know, I take some of my, like, supervisory and organization skills as a CEO and I apply them. And it’s worked out very well and it’s been a great fit. I love the organization, so it’s worked out well there. My family, raising my kids, you know, dealing, just. I’m helping to organize a class reunion. I’m applying a lot of these sort of like, delegation and management skills so that they help in all that areas of life. But yes, it was.

Eric Toscano [00:13:21]:
It was hard for me to start starting out, and I made a lot of mistakes, but I’m pretty open to that. And I. And I don’t bs and I don’t try to sugarcoat it when I’m talking, when I’m really looking back and trying to be honest with myself or, you know, advising or talking about it with other attorneys that are different points along the journey.

Darren Wurz [00:13:37]:
Right, right. And. And the team is going to mess up. They’re going to make mistakes. That’s. You have to be. You gotta be ready for that and you get. And you gotta be willing for them to mess up, because that’s part of the journey.

Eric Toscano [00:13:52]:
And I would say not just that, but I think going into. Because absolutely, that there will be mistakes. And if. If your fear, the only way to guarantee that no mistake will ever happen by someone else is not to Ever delegate anything so you don’t really get beyond being a solo. Right. So it’s just gonna happen. And it was so funny because I was actually having a conversation with our managing attorney earlier today. I was talking about it and it was like, you know, it’s surprising to me about the things that freaked me out in January of 2016.

Eric Toscano [00:14:19]:
Like my biggest fear at the time. You know what it was? I think it was getting a one star view. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine if someone gave me a negative online review that would shatter my world. Like the skies would fall and like, it’s so funny. And I’m like, oh yeah, boy, I wish that was like, I would pray for that to be the worst thing that happens. Like this week, you know, it’s just a different place. But sorry, I was going off on a little bit of a tangent, but.

Darren Wurz [00:14:46]:
No, that’s good. I mean, yeah, that evolves. Your worst fear evolves. You know, as my business has grown, you know, the worst fear would be something like that or would be losing a client. Right now that happens and you know, it’s concerning perhaps, but you’re more concerned about the team, right. And how well they’re doing. That really becomes a bigger mission as you grow. Yeah.

Darren Wurz [00:15:15]:
I want to ask you about hiring, right? It’s a challenging world for talent, right? There’s, there’s a lot of competition for talent. And we know what people say, right? You gotta be willing to pay, you know, pay the best to get the best. You know, I was talking with some attorneys in New Jersey a couple weeks ago and they were talking about this challenge. And one of them said he had hired an associate attorney. And the first day of work, you know, the guy is fresh out of law school, he pulls up in a Lamborghini, he’s like, oh, this is going to be a problem. And I think it’s just the pool of maybe where they’re looking for candidates, you know, from. You know, a lot of times we assume we need candidates from the best schools, but that may not be the case. They were bemoaning maybe a culture of entitlement perhaps that we’re seeing amongst younger folks.

Darren Wurz [00:16:12]:
I don’t really see that myself. I mean, sure, there are some people that are in that situation, but I’ve always had a good experience hiring people. What are some of the key things that you really look for? What are the big drivers that you know someone’s going to be successful?

Eric Toscano [00:16:32]:
It’s really interesting. It’s a very timely question for us. We’re actually hiring a. We’re hiring an attorney right now. A senior attorney. I let me start with. So I think the, the key indicator is what we’re looking for. Let me just start by saying it get has gotten so much easier.

Eric Toscano [00:16:48]:
One of the many benefits of having a larger firm with Inc. 5000 law firm 500 recognition more importantly for me, great place to work. 100% of the people who responded said tenant law group is a great place to work. You know, pretty good. You know, as an employer in 2025, you also got to keep your eye on Glassdoor. You know you’re going to have people who’ve exited who are just, you know. But for the most part we’ve got pretty good, you know, feedback on Glassdoor as well too. So that really helps.

Eric Toscano [00:17:15]:
Now going to your question about what are we looking for when we’re recruiting. So let me just maybe by way of story, let me, let me share with you. I thought for the longest time as a plaintiff firm what we really need, we need trial attorneys. Like we got attorneys who like are going to be ready to go. So I would say for the last couple of years we’ve really focused on hiring people looking to transition or who have had some background as prosecutors or public defenders, criminal law. They’ve done lots of trials.

Darren Wurz [00:17:40]:
Okay.

Eric Toscano [00:17:40]:
And we’ve had success like absolutely. We have two team members, super valuable team members who that’s where they started their careers and it’s just worked out well and we’ve had other team members where it didn’t work out so well. And what I realized is that I think what we’re going for is we always need to have someone on our team with that experience. But you know, I think a day to day what I’m really looking for. So on ZipRecruiter you can have it be a deal breaker question. I had as a deal breaker question, first chair, administrative, criminal or civil trial experience. And if the answer is no, I’ve never done it, then you’re not being considered. I changed that this time around.

Eric Toscano [00:18:14]:
And what I’ve realized is what I need is as a plaintiff’s attorney, it’s not about the litigation, it’s about the outcome. It’s about the resolution, not the litigation. It’s about the resolution. That’s been my mantra. So I need negotiators. I want someone. So now my deal breaker question is do you have experience negotiating a civil settlement of X? That’s the deal breaker. Because if it’s a no, I’m not going to have you train here.

Eric Toscano [00:18:38]:
I want you to. I want to slot you in. Because where we’re at and where we’re headed, like, we need just to take people who know what they’re doing and hitting the ground running. And one thing that I’ve observed and that I’ve been guilty of myself is for some reason, the natural instinct of, like all lawyers who are hiring their first attorney is I want to hire someone who’s going to be my protege. And they’re going to be. I’m going to have more experience than they’re going to be, baby. I’m going to hire them right out of law school. And it’s admirable and it’s fine.

Eric Toscano [00:19:05]:
And there’s. But where I’m at for my firm right now, we’re not hiring people out of law school. And when I am a huge booster of my alma mater, UC Davis School of Law, but I don’t make a pitch to come work at my firm right out of law school. I don’t have a place for you. Like, honestly, I want seasoned attorneys that can come in and make a difference and hit the ground running. But I want to be on their radar because they will be seen. They will be seasoned attorneys soon. And not to say there’s nothing that.

Eric Toscano [00:19:31]:
And I’m always available as a mentor to them, but it’s a realization that’s taken years, sort of. Okay, come to. Come to accept where we’re hiring. We want a lateral in professionals rather than have this be a first position for most people.

Darren Wurz [00:19:45]:
I. I think there’s a lot of wisdom there because law school doesn’t teach you all the skills that you need. The real world teaches you a lot of that. And that experience can be so valuable. Have you found that there’s like a sweet spot of experience? Because sometimes people with too much experience might be difficult. What’s. What’s the sweet spot for you?

Eric Toscano [00:20:11]:
Such a great question. We’ve had it. I had one attorney who was really successful here. Really sad he’s going to be moving on after six years with us. And he started as a first year. I think he’d been licensed only a year or two. So it’s been just such a pleasure working with this attorney. And like, um, I would say shepherding, maybe that’s not giving him enough credit, but basically being, you know, watching him excel and grow and become the attorney.

Eric Toscano [00:20:40]:
Amazing attorney is now. And we’ve also lateraled in. You know, our most recent hire was a general counsel and managing attorney with over 30. I think over 35 years of experience. And so I think it really just depends on the person. I will say as a threshold, someone who’s probably within their first five years should have some really solid experience in civil to make them, I think, a contender for a new open position in our firm. So I would kind of put that, I don’t really have a limit on the upper end, but I will say that along with that deal breaker question, the kinds of things that really interest me now and I actually was interviewing an attorney candidate yesterday and asking these questions. Tell me about how you deal with email.

Eric Toscano [00:21:19]:
Tell me about how you use a digital calendar. We’re remote so we have limited tools about. First of all, we now have admins who are first screeners for emails for attorneys. So if you haven’t ever had an admin like screen your email, it’s non negotiable. It’s part of the package. I don’t want people spending their time getting their inbox down to zero. There’s nothing, there’s no benefit, there’s no tangible benefit to a client to making that happen. We have admins that can help with that.

Eric Toscano [00:21:43]:
How do you manage your calendar? Are you the kind of person that sits down on a Sunday, writes down everything they want to accomplish, puts a time next to it and then slots that into their calendar to actually get it done? That’s what I do. That’s how, that’s one of the things that I now do every weekend. That’s non negotiable and I want people to be successful here. And so I don’t want to be too heavy handed but I want to look on that calendar and if I’m, if I see open time, that means you’re not working or available. I’m setting, I’m setting a meeting with you. If you come back and say, oh, I have a conflict, like why aren’t you putting this in your calendar? What’s wrong? But I’m not even waiting that long anymore. I’m trying to get out in front of that. But like if you’re not the kind of person who knows how to leverage your time and use your calendar, that’s everything in a plans firm.

Eric Toscano [00:22:19]:
Trying to think of one other question that was kind of critical. So for example, a candidate who has a career as a solo, you gotta let some of these things go. The same challenge that I faced, I was in your shoes once. You gotta be able to work with a paralegal and delegate. You gotta be able to work with a case manager and oh, by the way, how Comfortable are you about using the tools that we use internally involving AI applying, utilizing our, you know, our, our templates, our work product, and, you know, using some tools that other firms, I don’t think many other firms aren’t using yet because that’s how we’re operating here. And so you’ll have to be comfortable adapting to our system. And, you know, we had a time in the not so distant past where some of the struggles that we were facing really just boiled down to we had different pods internally that were running like their own firms. They weren’t using our systems, they weren’t using standard protocols, they weren’t using our templates, and guess what kind of results we were getting all over the place.

Eric Toscano [00:23:21]:
So we’re really. Attorneys at Tenant Law Group are going to have the opportunity to make their mark down. We’re not going to tell them how to negotiate, how to communicate with the other side. But we do have a lot. We have a system that works, that has a track record of success. Use this. You will hit your goals and, you know, it’s going to work out really well for you, for your client, for the firm, for all involved. So, sorry, a little bit of a long answer.

Darren Wurz [00:23:45]:
No, that’s good. That’s good to know. And I like that, you know, that approach, highlighting some of those softer skills. The word that comes to mind for me is execution. You know, people that, that are, you know, have a drive to get things done and can execute. You know, you might be a great thinker, you might be very knowledgeable, but can you actually, can you get the work done and can you do it?

Eric Toscano [00:24:09]:
Yeah, attorneys who have a lot of, like, I like to see people who’ve been, who’ve stayed for a long time. That used to be something that didn’t matter as much when I was hiring. Oh, this is a great candidate. And, okay, they’ve been a year here, a year here, a year here, a year here. But we’re, you know, as long as they’re here for a couple years, I, at this point, like, I, I want people to come here and buy into the vision that we have that I’m presenting to them. This is where I’m taking this firm. I would love for you to be on this journey with me. And I think that has been more helpful than anything else in terms of recruiting great talent, because people might be like, okay, this is XYZ Law Firm and we celebrate, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Eric Toscano [00:24:45]:
It’s the same. Like, I saw a website one time a few years ago, and it was like generic, big law firm. And it had like, it was. I don’t know if you ever saw that. And I was like, yes, they all look exactly the same. Well, let me tell you about what we do that no one else is doing right now. We’re doing these things. This is where I’m taking this.

Eric Toscano [00:24:59]:
This is what it means for the firm. This is what it means for you. This is what it means for our clients. This is the difference we’re going to make. It gets me excited. I share with them my bhag.

Darren Wurz [00:25:08]:
Let me ask you about that. How. What does that look like, that vision? You don’t have to give us the specifics, but generally. And then how do you develop it? And how are you communicating that with the team?

Eric Toscano [00:25:22]:
It’s a great question. So in January, I think it was last January. No, it started in 2023. We adopted scaling up as sort of our template. You know, some folks use eos. We used Scaling Up.

Darren Wurz [00:25:35]:
Yep.

Eric Toscano [00:25:35]:
And so we’ve been adopting and implementing the Rockefeller habits. And one of those is you need. You need to have a “BHAG”. Right. Your big hair, audacious goal. This is something that 10 to 25 years out. You have absolutely no idea how you’re going to get there now. But it’s in your.

Eric Toscano [00:25:48]:
It’s sort of coloring the decisions you make today to be able to hit that scale. So for us, I’m going to help out a hundred thousand tenants a year that’s part of my BHAG, and make services available to half the U.S. population. That’s eight states, one down.

Darren Wurz [00:26:07]:
Okay, there you go.

Eric Toscano [00:26:08]:
Right. So I’m 12.5% of, you know, the 50% there. By covering California, New York would get us further along as well too. So I don’t know. But those are our BHAGs. So people get excited. They know that there’s a vision, that this is part. This isn’t just about like, you know, just.

Eric Toscano [00:26:23]:
We’re just gonna. I don’t know, we’ll see what happens tomorrow. No, no, everything is done with intention. Something that’s been really helpful for the communication aspect of it is I, before adopting Scaling Up, I implemented a State of the firm presentation that I deliver quarterly. So the purpose of the January, and I do them in January, April, July and October. And they’re held the second Wednesday after the first, the completion, conclusion of the first quarter or of the quarter, um, and it’s a 90 day look back, here’s where we are. Um, and over time, I’ve become a more and more transparent. I found that transparency on every front is just really helps build trust and buy in.

Eric Toscano [00:27:05]:
And then in 90 day, this is now what we’re focusing on. We come up with a theme every quarter and like a projects, a few projects that the executive team is working on implementing and you know, see how that fits in with the greater vision of where we’re headed. And sometimes those change. Like I come into a year with this is what I think our focus is. And. And you just got to be nimble as a business owner because sometimes, you know this, there are opportunities that arise that you need to jump on in order to stay ahead of the curve. So that’s generally how we approach it.

Darren Wurz [00:27:34]:
That’s so cool. I love Vern Harnish’s work. What are some of your other, like, favorite things from that from. From his books, either from Scaling up or from Rockefeller habits that you’ve implemented in your practice.

Eric Toscano [00:27:54]:
Forcing the management leadership team to quantify every single position in the firm, giving them what’s what we call our critical number. You have a critical number you’re responsible for and the exercise of doing that was really helpful. And I got to tell you, I still haven’t figured it out for a couple positions. Like what’s the critical number for an executive assistant? Is it number of emails in their. The person they’re supporting inbox? I’ve gone with that. Yes. It’s hours saved. How do you manage that? How do you measure that? How do you measure hours saved? I mean, it’s got to be something that’s, you know, measurable and actually trackable too.

Darren Wurz [00:28:29]:
Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:28:29]:
So making. So that exercise has been helpful and that’s also been one of the hardest to implement because as a firm that constantly evolves and positions change, you know, critical numbers change and that whole. That has a whole effect of downward effect that, that that requires some additional work. But to your point, like what are some of the. What have I found, you know, in terms of drawing from scaling up? That’s been helpful. I think the critical number has been very helpful going through and just establishing what is our. What are our brand promises, what are our firm values? And having those things act as sort of a constitution for us. Like all the decisions will stem from that for us, for example, our purpose, core purpose.

Eric Toscano [00:29:14]:
Right. Hadn’t really thought about it. I had a magic statement. That’s something I created in how to manage from the beginning. But when we start first adopted scaling up. What’s our core purpose? Our core purpose is to improve the lives of California Renters, that’s our core purpose. Just make their lives better. Because it’s one thing to say we’ll get you a financial recovery.

Eric Toscano [00:29:34]:
The other thing is, and that’s just, I mean, that’ll get them part of the way. But if you’re dealing with someone who has never dealt with the sum of money before and they’re not aware of how to leverage that to their longer term benefit, there are always opportunities there. I don’t think many plaintiffs lawyers, I don’t think, spend a lot of time on what happens to the client after they get their settlement or judgment. But I think it’s something that I want to think about because I want to. That’s our core purpose is not just getting them money, it’s improving their lives.

Darren Wurz [00:30:02]:
So, yeah, I love that purpose statement because it’s bigger than the legal work. It opens you up to so much more that you can do and it ties in value too. It’s not just, we’re not just in it for the money. There’s more to it here. We want to improve their lives. And there’s so much you can do with that. That’s a really cool statement. I love that.

Eric Toscano [00:30:26]:
Thank you.

Darren Wurz [00:30:28]:
KPIs are kind of all the rage. We’re talking about critical numbers as a part of that as well. There’s so much misunderstanding about KPIs out there. When did you first start tracking KPIs? And what are like your top three to four that you feel like every law firm owner needs to, needs to have at the ready?

Eric Toscano [00:30:51]:
When should I have started implementing KPIs? From day one. When did I actually start really focusing on them? I think fairly early on. But beyond them just being a notation at the end of a job description that wasn’t like tracked and measured and holding people accountable on a regular basis, I think that’s something that’s become a lot more, that’s. We’ve been a lot more effective at, you know, measuring and tracking KPIs, I think, since we adopted the scaling up platform. But no, we’ve been, We’ve been tracking KPIs for a few years now. And then again, to be clear, 20, 2016, that we’re on year nine right now. So I would say for the first five, probably not that well. And the last four have been a lot better for a plaintiff’s firm.

Eric Toscano [00:31:34]:
It depends on the position, of course. I’ll give you the it depends answer. But I would say for lawyers, for example, if you’re in an, if you’re In a defense firm, it’s pretty easy. When I was an associate, it was.

Darren Wurz [00:31:45]:
Just your billable hour.

Eric Toscano [00:31:46]:
That was your KPI, basically. Right? I mean, do good work, do ethical work, and meet your billables. Okay. All right, so what is it in a plaintiff’s firm? And this is really challenging for people coming from a, from a defense firm background or even a government, you know, working as a DA or a public defender, where they’re just, you know, their, their performance might be tied to, or success might be tied to the number of cases that they can get through. And that’s not the purpose in a plaintiff’s firm. Yes, we, it’s the outcomes that matter, but it’s the outcomes at we’ve determined. So I, I think a little bit of foundational explanation here. We created a term that we call egs, and that’s an EGS value.

Eric Toscano [00:32:29]:
And EGS is an estimated gross settlement value. And we determine that at the outset using a proprietary, like calculator that we’ve, that has evolved over years of practice and has been informed by outcomes. So we have a pretty good sense, based on some data points that come in, what we can do with this case that is also informed by available collectibility, insurance policies, etcetera, which we’re also investigating at the outset. So we have an egs. We present a matter to a team member, to a client, excuse me, to an attorney, and say, here’s your matter, here’s a new matter. Here is the EGS. And so one of the KPIs for us is you’ve got to resolve this matter within 90% of EGS. We’ll give you the, all the tools you need, we’ll give you the support staff, we’ll give you the templates, we’ll give you the protocols, we’ll give you the matters, we’ll give you everything and we’ll even show.

Eric Toscano [00:33:16]:
But you have to, you know, track, report back and this is your target. And I want you to resolve, if you’re, you know, one of our litigation attorneys, what, you know, probably with the tools we’re adopting now, closer to two a month. Two resolutions a month. Right, okay. Which are pretty easily to track for our litigation matters. Those correspond fairly accurately with trial dates. The case is going to go to trial or it’s going to settle around the date of trial. So those are fairly easy to predict.

Eric Toscano [00:33:42]:
And, you know, a lot of people say it’s so hard, you know, running a plaintiff firm. You don’t know when the case is going to sell. You don’t know how much. I mean, you know, but that’s what data is for, right? I mean, you figure out averages and you can make some educated guesses and you focus on tweaking the variables to make that output a little higher. And so that’s what I really tried to do over time.

Darren Wurz [00:34:01]:
That’s so cool. I love it. Some great KPI ideas in there. Just making it a lot more scientific and measurable. Fantastic. So, Eric, you know, unfortunately, we’re coming down to the end of our time, but it’s been such a fantastic conversation with you. You joined the book club, which is really exciting and we’re excited to see you in there. But I do want to ask, so you see our book we’re reading right now, which is the Psychology of Money, Are there any other books that you’re reading right now that you are finding just really great, or maybe a previous favorite of yours?

Eric Toscano [00:34:38]:
It’s a great question. Yeah, we have an internal book club here too. I’m gonna draw a blank on the one right now. The. The author’s name, but it’s one I’m reading right now. But the first couple weeks of January, I read two Dan Sullivan books that I love. Dan Sullivan and Strategic Coach is fantastic. And I think it’s Hardy is the.

Eric Toscano [00:34:56]:
His. His. His co author, Dr. Hardy. So 10x is easier than 2x. Loved it. Just blew my mind. Focus on the 20%.

Eric Toscano [00:35:08]:
Just jettison the 80%. And that has been like my motivating factor for a lot of like what I’m doing now. This is an exact. This is exactly by design when I’m. What I was trying to do in part in terms of focusing on that 20%. So I like that. And I also was the other Dan Sullivan who not how. Love it.

Eric Toscano [00:35:26]:
Great. So those are two that I love that I’ve read recently.

Darren Wurz [00:35:29]:
Last fantastic recommendations. Yeah, I love 10x easier than 2x. I mean, you get the concept from the title, but you really got read it to get the impact from it. The way that they deliver it and the stories that they tell just really will help you just shift your mindset basically from an incremental growth strategy to more. More exponential, essentially, and thinking bigger in terms of systems and structure that you need to create. That one will change your life. Yeah.

Eric Toscano [00:35:58]:
Oh, for sure. Can I. Can I share a funny little, very brief, please? I got a text from another law firm owner who I’m friends with, and she’s like, eric, you have to enter this prompt into ChatGPT. And the prompt was, I don’t know if you heard if this is something that’s like circulating that. Anyway, it basically says I’m, you’re teaching, you’re instructing ChatGPT. You are a multi billionaire like founder. You are no holds barred, you are brutally honest and you need to get, you know, your, your student, basically your member that you’re coaching to this level. And it was funny and I punched, I copied and pasted.

Eric Toscano [00:36:31]:
This was literally yesterday I did this. And some of the advice, I didn’t even ask for anything is like, all right, this is your homework. This is what you have to do. You have to identify that 20% and you have to focus on that and eliminate the 80. I was like, okay, Dan Sullivan was really hitting on something there. If this is what the genius of Chat GPT is focusing on. And I, you know, I think there’s something to it.

Darren Wurz [00:36:48]:
So it was just kind of a funny reflection of that thesis, you know.

Darren Wurz [00:36:54]:
Right, right.

Eric Toscano [00:36:54]:
Taking shape in Chat GPT.

Darren Wurz [00:36:56]:
So for sure, absolutely. Well, Eric, where can our listeners go to find you if they want to learn more about you?

Eric Toscano [00:37:03]:
So if listeners are just interested in more of my philosophy, I would say LinkedIn. I’m Eric Toscano is my LinkedIn handle and for more on Tenant Law Group, Tenant Law Group SF.com is our URL. So visit our website and yeah, best ways to reach me.

Darren Wurz [00:37:23]:
Well, thanks for joining us, Eric.

Eric Toscano [00:37:25]:
Thank you. Much appreciated.

Darren Wurz [00:37:27]:
If you want to connect with Eric, you can find him on LinkedIn or visit tenantlawgroupsf.com We’ve got all his links in the show notes so be sure to check those out. What did we learn today? Scaling isn’t about working harder. It’s about hiring smarter data and metrics and communicating a strong vision. If you don’t have a clear bhag big hairy, audacious goal for your firm, now’s the time to define it. I love that Eric is using Vern Harnish’s scaling Up framework to grow and manage his rapidly expanding practice. And here at the Lawyer Millionaire, we teach Vern Harnish’s methods along with others like eos. And we’ve incorporated these various approaches into our simple one page business plan philosophy. Want similar growth results? Jump on a call with me and I’ll share with you my one page strategic business plan template for law firms.

Darren Wurz [00:38:24]:
It’s the same framework I use with my clients to help them scale profitably and build real wealth. Also, leave us a review. If you got value from today’s episode, it helps more law firm owners. Discover our show and finally join our free book club for law firm owners and start learning the strategies that take firms from stuck to scalable. Well, that’s a wrap for this episode of the Lawyer Millionaire. Seize the moment, take action, and create the life you deserve. See you next time.

Outro [00:39:02]:
Thank you for listening to the Lawyer Millionaire. Click the Follow button below to be notified when new episodes become available. This content has been made available for informational and educational purposes only. This content is not intended to represent investing or tax advice. Always seek the advice of a qualified investment or tax advisor with any questions you may have regarding your own financial circumstances.

Lessons on Growth from Inc 5000 Law Firm Owner Eric Toscano (Ep. 107)