How Niching Down Can Boost Law Firm Marketing with Chris Dreyer (Ep. 16)

Are you looking for ways to help your firm stand out from the competition and attract more clients through effective search engine optimization (SEO)?

Look no further!

In this episode, Darren chats with Chris Dreyer, the CEO of Rankings.io, who shares his expert insights on achieving long-lasting and immediate results for law firms–especially personal injury firms. Together they explore winning strategies for boosting your online presence and positioning your firm as a leader in the industry.

Chris discusses:

The importance of having a niche when targeting customers
How to identify your Total Addressable Market (TAM)
How you can connect with clients through Google Maps, Google Reviews and many more ranking systems
And more

Resources:

Wurz Financial Services

Connect with Darren Wurz:

Connect with Chris Dreyer:

About our guest:

Chris Dreyer is the CEO and Founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency that helps elite personal injury law firms land serious injury and auto accident cases through Google’s organic search results. His company has the distinction of making the Inc. 5000 list five years in a row.

Chris’s journey in legal marketing has been a saga, to say the least. A world-ranked collectible card game player in his youth, Chris began his “grown up” career with a History Education degree and landed a job out of college as a detention room supervisor. The surplus of free time in that job allowed him to develop a side hustle in affiliate marketing, where (at his apex) he managed over 100 affiliate sites simultaneously, allowing him to turn his side gig into a full-time one. When his time in affiliate marketing came to an end, he segued into SEO for attorneys, while also having time to become a top-ranked online poker player.

Today, Chris is the CEO and founder of Rankings.io, an SEO agency specializing in elite personal injury law firms and 5x consecutive member of the Inc. 5000.

In addition to owning and operating Rankings, Chris is a real estate investor and podcast host, as well as a member of the Forbes Agency Council, the Rolling Stone Culture Council, Business Journals Leadership Trust, Fast Company Executive Board, and Newsweek Expert Forum.

Chris’s first book, Niching Up: The Narrower the Market, the Bigger the Prize is slated for release in late 2022.

Transcript:

[00:00:00] We are on a mission to help lawyers and law firm owners maximize wealth and achieve financial independence. Welcome to the Lawyer Millionaire with Darren Wurz From Wurz Financial Services. In this podcast, we will help you build wealth, minimize your taxes and plan for retirement with money management strategies designed for the legal profession.

Join us in this journey where we help you manage your money so you can make the most of your future. Start feeling confident in knowing you are well prepared for retirement and on track to financial independence. Now onto the show.

Patrice: Legal marketing. Yeah, there is such a thing and Darren’s guest makes it his specialty. Chris Dreyer is the CEO and founder of an SEO agency that helps elite personal injury law firms get their name front and center; and Darren Chris is also an author and he does something with that card game [00:01:00] called poker.

Darren: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Uh, that’s right Patrice and I’m super excited to be here again today with you to welcome a new guest on our program, Chris Dreyer. This is gonna be really exciting. I’m super excited to have Chris on the show today because he is a master of marketing for personal injury firms.

He’s got a new book out. He’s gonna tell us all about that. He’s got his own podcast that has a great following. They have some really awesome guests. I’ve been listening for some time now and so yeah, this is gonna be really great for our audience to hear. Chris is gonna share some great tips with us, so welcome to the show, Chris.

Chris: Darren, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

Darren: Yeah. Great. Well, I am excited too! Why don’t you introduce yourself a little bit to our audience. Tell us about who you are and what your business is.

Chris: Yeah, Chris Dreyer. I’m the CEO of rankings .IO. We help personal injury attorneys with their digital marketing.

[00:02:00] We specialize in search engine optimization, SEO, and we’ve been around just over 10 years, been on the Ink 5,000, fastest growing list for the last five years in a row and we’re just trying to be the best at what we do and provide as much value as possible to our clients.

Darren: That’s impressive. That’s very impressive.

Chris:Thank you.

Darren: So I understand from our previous conversation, this isn’t always what you’ve done. You had a start like me in the education world.

Chris:Mm-hmm.

Darren: Yeah. So, yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey? How you went from teacher to now CEO of this great business of working with attorneys?

Chris: Yeah, and I don’t know how far, how deep you wanna go because the entrepreneur general has been up and down. I told my parents when I went to, it kind of starts right before college. I told my parents, “Hey, I’ll go to college.” You want me to go to college and get a degree, but I’m gonna own my own business someday.[00:03:00]

I went to college. I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. I didn’t really know what opportunities were out there and somehow I ended up with a history education degree. I was the worst student. I ended up with good grades, but like, I just didn’t attend class. I wasn’t present. I wasn’t passionate about the subject matter, and I was a little lost and I played a lot of sports and got a job out of high school as their JV coach and their detention room supervisor. The worst job you can possibly imagine. These kids that were in trouble and tardy and truant and whatever in there. I had so much downtime that I wanted to use it to make more money, and I typed in how to make more money online.

That’s the starting point. I took Ed Dale’s course and it taught me the basis of affiliate marketing and it gave me the information I needed to pursue it. [00:04:00] And I knew, because back then there weren’t thousands of courses. You had to go to some random forum and find the guy. That’s how you learn digital marketing.

By the end of my second year teaching, I was making about, I’m gonna say four x to five x the amount that I was teaching or in that, you know, detention room supervisor position, which was the equivalent of a teacher salary. And I gave them notice. I moved to Tampa, Florida and pursued that and had my ups and downs and got hit by that first penguin algorithm.

And it basically nuked my income. I wasn’t saving, I was spending like crazy. And I got a job at an agency. I rose to be their top person and it’s the classic, I thought I could do it better than them.

Darren:Mm-hmm.

Chris: Started my own agency in 2013.

Darren: Okay.

Chris: It’s the rapid fire version.

Darren: Yeah, absolutely. So you started your own agency.

That’s incredible that you were able to kind of get that going while you were teaching and, and grow your [00:05:00] income so rapidly. So then when did the decision come along? To specialize not just in attorneys, but in personal injury attorneys.

Chris: That decision that’s about seven, seven years in, maybe six or seven years in.

I listened to a Seth Godin podcast with Jason Swink and he was talking about being remarkable and going deeper, and I didn’t wanna play the game just for fun. I wanted to win. I wanted to be the best in my field and to make a decision to niche. Everyone immediately thinks of the downside of giving up and shrinking their TAM , their total addressable market, and I’m just like anyone. I like, oh, I’m not making a ton here and I’m gonna shrink my market. But when I looked at the data, I found that 70% of my revenue was coming from less than 40% of my clientele and that was personal injury. So it was a clear path to specialize in that. Cause then I could improve, [00:06:00] all the benefits that come with nicheing.

And that’s what I did. In the past when I made that decision, I took the hard just, I’m referring out to everybody that was a PI, so I gave away that other 30%. I did get some referral commissions and I did get a few, um, referrals back from that, you know, due to reciprocity. But I gave away a lot of income and because we had our focus though, I had these benefits and it really accelerated our growth after.

Darren: Yeah, absolutely. And then, so you had that experience, you were giving away income, but obviously it worked for you, right?

Chris: Yeah.!

Darren: So, and then you can speak. You’re kind of the best example I can think of having a niche, of having a really well defined niche.

Chris: Yeah. There, so the cons.

So let’s start with the cons. The cons.

Darren:Sure. [00:07:00]

Chris: You do shrink your TAM. You put yourself at industry risk, right? Cause you’re not serving everyone and your industry goes down. Covid people aren’t driving. You lose money.

Darren:Mm-hmm.

Chris:The other, the main con is an increase in effort and sacrifice on the consumer. Because if you only do one thing, then you make it more difficult for that consumer to work with you. So at the time we were just doing SEO, so if they wanna do pay per click as an example, or social media or whatever, they have to go to another agency and have multiple points of contact, which is an increase in effort.

That’s the main con I, I would argue that it’s a bigger con than the addressable. So knowing that, what are the pros? The pros, you understand your avatar. You understand how to generate more value for them, and through value allows you to increase your fees. The, so you can generate more profit through increasing your fees.

There are, you can eliminate waste. Eliminating waste means [00:08:00] you can productize more, you can create efficiencies. Instead of doing one editorial calendar, every error of the law, I’m doing it for one and then I’m optimizing it. I know where to advertise. So I’m maximizing my revenue dollars, my conversions increase because I’m speaking their language.

I understand them at a deeper level. I’m not guessing on my price points cuz I understand where the value’s at there. And there are many, many other benefits, referrals. All these authority situations just from a perception standpoint. I’m perceived as an expert. Even when I declare that I’m a PI specialist, even though I may not, uh, the clients don’t know how many PI firms I’ve worked with, right?

That brain surgeon, that’s a doctor that becomes a brain surgeon, someone’s their first brain surgery patient and they’re still perceived as the expert. So there’s all these intangibles and that’s really what helped me and it [00:09:00] helped me generate more profit.

Darren: Yeah. So then this carries over to law firms and attorneys in their practices, and you’ve got a whole book on it, “Nicheing up.”

Tell us how specific do attorneys need to get or give us some examples of a really well defined niche for a lawyer, for a law firm owner, and for someone who’s been a, you know, generalist, um, convince them to specialize. How can you do that for us?

Chris: I’ll say this. Niching’s not for everyone.

Darren:Okay.

Chris: If you don’t niche, you’re gonna have to play the capital game.

And, and let me explain this. So if you’re a pre-lit firm, meaning you’re going after volume and you need a very large TAM and you need to be able to maximize your revenue dollars. So, your advertising dollars. So that’s, you need a whole host of practice [00:10:00] areas and you need large distribution. That’s one method.

I would argue that if you niche too far and it would be very difficult to maximize. You would’ve a lot of waste with your advertising dollars because you’re getting all these different cases and you know, if you’re not referring them out, there’s real challenges there. If you’re a litigating firm and you’re, getting maximum value for your cases, you don’t necessarily, it’s very wise to niche.

You understand the nuances when it comes to the area of the law that you’re talking about. You’re seen as a thought leader. Remember the whole perception thing when you choose your area and you stand out in a crowded space. I can give many examples to this. The best example I can give is Joe Fried; specialized in trucking accidents.

He’s on the stage speaking. He’s [00:11:00] known as the thought leader in that space. He gets tons of referrals for trucking accidents. He knows their handbooks, the ins and outs and nuances when it comes to getting maximum value for truck accidents. There’s Mike Papantonio and Mass Torts. There’s individuals who specialize in nursing abuse or med mal and all these individuals are kind of known and the differences in how they’re marketing when you’re B to C, you have to use mass distribution, tv, radio, social media, all these different things. To get in front. You need this mass awareness when you’re B to B, which is getting referrals from your peers. It’s you have to utilize marketing to be seen as a thought leader, speaking on stage, writing a book, all those types of things. Having the big case results so that you stand out. That’s a big mouthful.

Darren:Yeah.

Chris: But that’s kind of the differences that I see in the space.

Darren:Okay. [00:12:00] Yeah. So this fascinates me because, I mean, it’s like every time I think and learn a little bit more about having a well-defined niche, it just gets, there’s like a whole nother level.

Right. You know, to me, when I first started thinking about this, personal injury seemed like a niche, right? And then you’re like, wait a minute. No. There are niches within personal injury trucking, traumatic brain injury, you know, and it really, you know, it makes a lot of sense because if you’re a personal injury attorney, there’s so much research and knowledge that goes into one of these cases.

Like if you have a traumatic brain injury case, you’re not just an attorney, you have to almost become a doctor. You have to understand. The medical side of things and all that. There’s a lot of learning that has to take place and you really maximize your efficiency if you’re really dealing with only one type of case and you don’t have to kind of relearn everything all over again.

So, yeah. This is really, um, [00:13:00] a very, very cool concept. So thank you for those ideas. Now it’s not for everybody you said so. . Where are some examples of maybe where, so maybe where you don’t want to go so far. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Chris: There are, if you like, variety, right?

Darren: Okay.

Chris: You’re not a person that wants to just do trucking accidents.

You want, you get a sense of joy of getting this case that has a different type of argument and you want variety. I would say that would be a situation maybe you, where you don’t want a niche. if you want to, I guess, decrease and for every pro, right? I can flip these, right? I can back and forth argue, but I guess you could decrease your industry risk if you do multiple areas of the law.

For example, the cruise line, there were a lot of cruise line injury attorneys.

Darren:Hmm.

Chris: covid thing hit, well, they shut down. They’re completely out of business.

Darren:[00:14:00] Yeah.

Chris: Versus if you’re doing trucking and motorcycle and whatever workers’ comp you, you’ve got, a little bit of a backup.

I would say like, look, if it’s working, like why, like go with what’s working and just continue to ride that momentum. It generally does take more

capital if you don’t niche, because you have to saturate a market to be memorable. That’s why the big TV advertisers have to spend so much in a market because there’s six other people on the same television station, and they have to be seen so many times to be memorable.

And that’s also why Jim Adler and these, the Texas Hammer and some of these people take these creative approaches to be different, to stand out because the saturation. But I don’t have a great example. I would just say that it just introspection and, and look at your own situation.

Darren: Yeah. So in the clients you work with, are you helping them to make these decisions about [00:15:00] defining their niche more clearly?

Chris: I wish I had more input there. I am seen as a trusted advisor, but it’s more on the marketing. Like, how do I get the leads, not the, I know the strategy component goes into it. The other thing I’ll tell you is a lot of coaches and mentors will tell you , you got a niche out of the gate.

I’m actually against that.

Darren:Mm-hmm.

Chris: I think you have to have these experiences and understand where you have a purpose, passion, and where you can generate profit. Because if you pick an area of the law that’s not proven, or you don’t have one of those from the Vinn diagram, those, you know, the three circles that kind of meet in the middle.

then it’s just not gonna work. If you don’t have a passion and you need to put in the hours, you may not want to get outta bed and, and work on that case. You know, even if you have the passion and purpose, but it’s not gonna make any money, then it’s not a good niche. So you gotta have these experiences to identify the opportunity.

Darren: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. So, let’s talk about some of those other things that you’re [00:16:00] doing for your attorneys. Some of the other work that you’re putting in. Search engine optimization. What are some of the other services that you’re providing for your clients?

Chris: Yeah. We did. SEOs, 98% of our business.

Darren: Okay.

Chris: I’ll be real. Our website design is specifically catered to make our SEO more effective. We do SEO driven design. We do Google ads as well, and Google ads we recently got into because of our niche. They’re targeting a lot of the same keywords in ad groups and copywriting and tactics. And then we do LSA local service ad management, which there’s not a lot of levers you can pull to manage that.

Uh, but we do help our clients optimize and set that up and get that going. Uh, but yeah, those are the core offers that we have.

Darren: Okay. So when clients come to you and they need help, what are some of the big fundamental big things that you see right [00:17:00] away, um, that are pretty common that attorneys need to fix.

Chris: I’ll kind of divide this in the four big pillars. On the content side, they typically, their content’s not good enough. It’s not long enough, it doesn’t answer consumer intent. It’s not fresh, It’s not optimized. Typically, you gotta imagine in 2016, there were like 6 trillion web pages. Here we are in 2023.

How many pages are on the net? It’s not a situation where the library of content doesn’t exist. You already have, you know, a hundred other car accident lawyer pages, so yours has to be better. That’s number one. The second would be the optimization of the site. A lot of times the site architecture and how a user navigates throughout the website to find the information that they need is poorly created.

So it just needs; the consumer needs to be able to navigate and find the information easily. And then the [00:18:00] next one is you need to get back links from other websites. I look at it, a backlink is like an endorsement of your website. It’s how Google endorses your site. If you’re trying to win an election, you wanna get as many votes as possible.

If you’re trying to win the first page of Google, you wanna get as many high quality links as possible, cuz those are trusted endorsements. So a lot of times they don’t have enough links. The SEO agents here, or digital agency agency, not all. A lot of times they’ll say they’re link building and air quotes and they just aren’t or aren’t effectively.

Darren: So these are links. You wanna have links to other sources of content on your page. Is that what you’re talking about?

Chris:So two types of links. There’s internal links. So on your website, if you’re linking to other content that’s on your website. So if you’re on a, let’s say a car accident lawyer page and you could link to a rear end collision, right?

Cause that would be related on your website. But I’m referring [00:19:00] to a, an outside website, another domain. So say you have personalinjuryphiladelphia.com and let’s give you an example like attorney at Law Magazine is linking to your domain.

Darren: Okay.

Chris:So that would be, that’s what I’m referring to.

It’s an endorsement from the other site to yours. It’s like a vote.

Darren:Mm-hmm.

Chris: So a lot of times they just don’t have enough votes and you have to have those votes to move up the search engine results. To be recognized by Google to understand that Google wants to even crawl your website because there’s so many pages.

Google doesn’t crawl every page. There’s too many, they don’t have the resources to crawl every page. That’s why the Google helpful content update in December, 2022 came out and said, Hey, delete your non evergreen content. That’s to help Google crawl the web. And then the last one is a big one. It’s reviews.

You have to [00:20:00] get reviews on to rank in the map pack. It’s by relevant assistance and prominence and under prominence is reviews, count, and score. So quantity and quality. The challenge here is if you’re a pre-lit firm and you’re doing the big mass distribution, you have a lot of customers, you can get a lot of reviews.

If you’re a litigating firm and you only take a case or two a month, you’re not gonna have the review opportunity. So, that’s the downside of those litigating firms and then one other thing I’ll say is not, is you need to be really focused on quality and maintaining as high as possible to a five star rating as you can.

And I’ll give this example. If you go on vacation and you type best restaurants near me, you’re not gonna see one star reviews. You’re gonna see five star restaurants and four point nines and four point eight. The same when a consumer types in best car accident lawyer, top truck accident attorney. If you have a low rating and you’re [00:21:00] not focused on your review score, you’re not gonna show up in a map pack for those searches.

Darren: Okay. Wow, that’s, you gave us a lot of stuff to unpack here. So, that’s very, very helpful. Yeah. You know, when I think about reviews, when I look at reviews as a consumer, I look for the one star. What did the one star person have to say? So it might not, you might not think that just having like one low rating matters, but it does because people are gonna look and they’re gonna see what that’s all about.

Because sometimes, I don’t know, when I’m on Google, it’s like, everything’s a four. It’s a four something. It’s a 4.3. It’s a 4.4, it’s a 4.5. and I’ll be, I’ll go to a restaurant and think it’s terrible and it still has like a 4.3 rating somehow, you know.

Chris: Right.

Darren: So on the subject of maps, yeah, I was told that Google Maps and Google my business was becoming more and more important, which is more important ranking higher, on the search engine page, uh, or ranking, on, you know, on the higher, on the Google [00:22:00] Maps page?

Chris: You’re gonna get the majority of your cases from maps, but you’re gonna see Facebook ads, you’re gonna see even some of my competitors solely focused on just talking about local. But the thing is, the actions that you take to rank an organic help you in maps. You can’t segment the two effectively. I would be happy to ba debate any SEO specialist that thinks otherwise.

How you rank in the map pack is relevance, distance, and prominence. Underneath the definition for prominence, it says articles, aka content, links, directories, AKA links again. So those same actions help you in organic. The only one that’s different that they can that count as a score. Under prominence, under the prominence section, cuz there’s three main sections is, is review, count and score.

So if you’re doing great content, if you’re getting doing the backlinking, it’s gonna help you in [00:23:00] maps. So, but you’re gonna get more traffic from organic because organic will function to be all areas of the funnel, top and middle. So those investigative queries as, as opposed to just bottom of the funnel.

Philadelphia car accident lawyer. Having said that, where you make the money is, is in maps because it’s the bottom of the funnel transactional results.

Darren: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. And as I understand it, Google is constantly changing. Is that right?

Chris:All the time. Yeah.

Darren: And. So it helps to obviously have someone like you who can keep up with all of those changes and so forth.

How about keywords? Are keywords as important as they used to be? And you know, what’s happening there?

Chris: Oh, this is a deep question. Let me, let me try to think about how granular I wanna go here. Um, okay, so Google’s understanding [00:24:00] of the web of a page has improved and it looks at like segments and groupings of related phrases as like a category of content or a theme.

So it now has a greater understanding, and we can get really deep here on what’s what’s called entity based SEO. Where Google now has the, the ability to identify entities, persons, physical businesses, events and things like that. So, um, it’s evolved and the reason Google likes entities is because it’s easier to recall information and it doesn’t have the bandwidth from a crawling perspective.

That’s why Google struggles with like Java script. , I would say 99% of the SEO specialists listening to this don’t even know this. So I’m going deeper than, and I’m not saying that with no ego. I’m just saying this is generally a topic that’s new because they, Google’s had to change cuz there’s too much content.

So they need an easier way to determine [00:25:00] what is an entity, what, who is a person. Like, you could, you could say a word but Google needs to know that that’s a person or this is a store and how they relate together. So yes, it’s always changing, in shortening, it’s always changing in their codes, evolving to make it easier to consume information.

Darren:Yeah. That was, um, one of the things you mentioned previously was about having a good amount of content. And I think I saw a post from you that was talking about you need to have more content, you need to make it long. And I was like, wow, okay. You know, because I always thought maybe I should make the webpages simple and easy, you know, very light on the content so people can, don’t kind of get, you know, lost in the content necessarily.

Tell us more about that. What should our pages look like? Should they, they need to have more content is what you’re saying . [00:26:00] It’s not a hard rule, and I’ll tell you why. Longer content typically performs better, but mm-hmm. , let’s say your query is really long. What are the steps I need to take after a car accident?

If you’re writing an article, you know the intent. If someone comes to that page, you know what they want. If they wanna know the steps, write the steps. It doesn’t have to be very long. You, you make it formatted and as easily as possible that they can consume that information and serve them. If your query short car accents, what do you write about?

do they need a lawyer? Do they were, was it a type, you know, they want to check the type of car accident, you know, or were they looking up car accident statistics or, uh, famous celebrities in car accidents? If your query’s shorter, you generally need to create longer form of content because it answers multiple versions of intent.

You can cover multiple aspects of that content or query. The other reason, when just looking at it from an SEO perspective, [00:27:00] Google, is not I can’t see a motion if I read the page and I’m happy, right? They’re gonna compare two pages for the same query and see, oh, one consumer stayed 30 seconds on the page and the other one stayed two minutes.

Man, that one’s probably better. They’re staying longer. They’re consuming the information. They’re happy with the experience. Same as if of the consumer, you know, A and B one came and left and then went to another website. Or even if they saved the same amount of time, but the second one went and they didn’t go to another website, maybe their needs were met, maybe the one that went to a second website didn’t have their needs met.

All that and much, much more goes into the length of the content and, and typically longer content performs better and the ranking results, cuz Google can see it and identified there’s too many pages. If you have a 200 word article. There’s just too much content on the web. I mean, you, [00:28:00] you need to have things that are robust and that’s just the way it is currently.

Darren: So that’s, yeah, one way to stand out is make sure it’s really good quality and you’ve got a good amount of it. That’s great because yeah, I mean, , everybody’s writing short content. So that’s the, the common thing that’s not gonna stand out probably as much. Great. Well, this has been really good.

We’re coming closer to the end of our time here. You know, Chris, as you’re working with your clients and seeing things change, what are some new trends or new things that we haven’t talked about that attorneys and uh, law firm owners should be aware?

Chris: Hesitant to bring it up, but I guess we gotta talk about AI , ah, AI chat GPT. It’s, uh, it’s kind of in its early stages, but it definitely has the ability to change the game from a lot of perspectives. Just eliminate live, ch other, there’s, there’s many positions that it just eliminates, but. , you know, if I’m echoing Naval Racon, it [00:29:00] will actually create opportunities in different areas, eliminate things, but it will create new things.

And it’s early in its adoption. Microsoft’s invested billions of dollars into it, and we’ll see how it kind of plays out right now. It’s having a lot of issues. The quality, the information’s not accurate. The, uh, information’s outdated. And you can do different things to improve the results, but it’s not quite there.

It’s gonna change the game for the content marketing agencies that, that specialize in content. They’re gonna have to adjust and as the SEO agencies are, but that’s the big one on the horizon that everyone’s really talking about. .

Darren: Yeah I think it’s gonna change the legal profession as we know it in many professions probably as well.

Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Chris. Um, in closing, why don’t you let us know or let our audience know how people can get in touch with you, learn more about you and the work that you do. [00:30:00]

Chris: Yeah. Thanks Darren. I’m most active on LinkedIn, so if you find me on LinkedIn, it’s and wanna send me a message.

It’s Chris Dreyer and Dreyer’s, D R E Y E R. That’s the social media me network I’m most active on. If you’re a personal injury attorney listening and you need help with your SEO, you can head on over to rankings.io and if you want to learn more about nicheing, go over to Amazon and pick up my book, Nicheing Up.

Darren:Great. Great. And actually one last thing I forgot to ask you, which I’m gonna ask all my guest. What is your ideal retirement? What does it look like?

Chris: My ideal would be on the beach somewhere. I would, uh, be able to go to as many UNC basketball games as possible. Watch him with my son, and I would keep playing the game.

I love the game of business, so I would have, I would be a chairman, not necessarily a CEO of multiple ventures.

Darren: Very cool. I love it. [00:31:00] That’s great. Thank you so much Chris, for coming on the show. And, uh, if you wanna learn more about me and my book, the Lawyer Millionaire, you’d like to, uh, book a consultation and talk about your own retirement planning and financial planning, just head on over to thelawyermillionaire.com Patrice.

Patrice: All right, everyone follow this podcast. Please for the latest episode, share with others and if you find it informative and helpful, let Darren know. Thanks for being with us.

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