As a law firm owner, the demands of the legal profession can often lead to burnout. In the latest episode of The Lawyer Millionaire podcast, Darren Wurz engages in a candid conversation with Karen McClure, a seasoned attorney turned burnout coach. The insightful discussion delves into the complexities of lawyer burnout and its profound impact on legal professionals. Karen’s personal journey and professional expertise provide a compelling look at the challenges faced by law firm owners and offer invaluable strategies for navigating burnout effectively.
In this episode, listeners will gain practical knowledge in the following areas:
1. Recognizing the subtle yet significant differences between stress and burnout, and understanding key indicators of burnout within their personal and professional context.
2. Exploring the critical role of boundary setting in preventing burnout and fostering a sustainable work-life equilibrium within the legal industry.
3. Strategies to proactively detect and address burnout within law firm teams, including legal assistants and paralegals, to uphold a supportive and balanced work environment.
4. Understanding the pervasive impact of burnout on productivity, often leading to procrastination and influencing both professional performance and personal well-being.
5. A comprehensive insight into Karen’s coaching methodology, emphasizing the nervous system, subconscious beliefs, and thought processes to effectively combat burnout and regain control in legal practice.
In today’s fast-paced and high-stress legal profession, burnout is a common experience for attorneys and law firm owners. The causes of burnout can range from overwhelming workloads, emotional stress, and the relentless pressure to meet high expectations.
Karen’s personal journey began as a practicing attorney in 2006, where she faced challenging times with her parents’ health issues and the unexpected transition to managing her family’s law firm. This period of immense stress catapulted her into a deep exploration of wellness initiatives, yoga, and meditation, which led her to delve into the personal development world and ultimately transition into coaching. Her unique understanding of the legal field’s challenges and her journey through burnout has shaped her approach to coaching attorneys dealing with burnout and its associated struggles.
When discussing the signs of burnout, Karen emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between stress and burnout. She explains that stress is an internal response, while burnout is a prolonged and work-related state that manifests physically and mentally, leading to adverse health effects. The similarity to depression may be episodic, but without intervention, it can have lasting consequences.
Karen highlights the critical role of establishing boundaries to prevent burnout in the legal profession, particularly emphasizing the importance of time management and setting expectations with clients. Furthermore, she underscores the impact of burnout on productivity and its correlation to procrastination, affecting professional performance and potentially leading to disciplinary issues.
Through her coaching process, Karen primarily focuses on addressing the nervous system, identifying subconscious beliefs, and working on thought processes to effect a sustainable change. Her mission is rooted in transforming the legal culture, one attorney at a time, by helping attorneys find success without sacrificing their well-being.
For legal professionals seeking to address burnout and achieve holistic success, accessing the support of a burnout coach like Karen McClure can be a transformative experience. Karen’s expertise in providing practical strategies, stress-relief techniques, and mindset shifts can empower attorneys to reframe their beliefs and actions, ultimately leading to a more balanced and fulfilling professional journey.
If you’re interested in learning more about Karen’s approach to overcoming burnout and achieving success in the legal profession, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, Instagram at Karen McClure Coaching or visit her website at karenmcclure.com.
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Remember, with the right strategies and support, you can thrive as a law firm owner without compromising your well-being. Visit thelawyermillionaire.com to explore more resources and insights on financial success and law firm ownership.
Resources:
Connect with Darren Wurz:
- dpw@wurzfinancialservices.com
- 30 Minute Chat With Darren
- Wurz Financial Services
- The Lawyer Millionaire: The Complete Guide for Attorneys on Maximizing Wealth, Minimizing Taxes, and Retiring with Confidence by Darren Wurz
- LinkedIn: Darren P. Wurz
- LinkedIn: The Lawyer Millionaire
- Twitter: Wurz Financial Services
Connect with Karen McClure:
- Linkedin: Karen McClure
- Website: Karen McClure
About our guest:
Karen McClure is a lawyer, a mom of two boys, dog mom, cat mom, and a certified lawyer burnout coach.
I live with my family outside of Birmingham, Alabama. I’ve grown to love it here, even though all I wanted as a teenager was to leave.
I went to law school in 2003 because I had an English degree, a Women’s Studies minor, and no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up.
I’ve practiced law since 2006, and I’ve been running a law firm with my husband since 2013. It was my dad’s practice before he passed away that year.
My dad was my mentor, and he taught me that the only way to succeed was to work harder. He worked right up until he died, and I vowed that my life wouldn’t look like that.
It wasn’t long after we started running the practice that I burned out.
I remember what it feels like to want to stay home because you feel so anxious about going into work but then the only way you know how to deal with that anxiety is to just keep going.
I lost sleep and gained weight.
I tried desperately to get myself out of it, but the only way I found to overcome burnout was to work with a coach
And, that was when I found my calling. I knew I needed to get certified, so I could help other lawyers who are going through what I went through.
I’m here to help you.
If you’re feeling drained, anxious, and hopeless when it comes to your practice and your life, we can talk about how to get you out of it.
Transcript:
Darren Wurz [00:00:00]:
Burnout is a common experience for many attorneys and other high performing professionals. What causes burnout, and how do we overcome it? Is it simply working too hard, or is there a deeper meaning? Hello there, and welcome to another episode of the Lawyers Millionaire podcast. I’m your host, Darren Wurz, financial advisor for law firm owners. I’m thrilled you chose to join us for today’s conversation. Our guest today is someone very special, and I got to meet her just a few weeks ago at the ABA GP solo conference in Kansas City, which was awesome. And she has dedicated her career to the betterment of the legal profession. She’s a veteran attorney turned coach specializing in lawyer burnout. With her unique understanding of the legal field and its challenges, Darren McClure has become a trusted guide for many attorneys dealing with burnout, procrastination, and perfectionism.
Darren Wurz [00:00:55]:
Karen, welcome to the show.
Karen McClure [00:00:57]:
Thank you so much for having me.
Darren Wurz [00:01:00]:
Absolutely. I’m excited to talk about this. I think I’ve struggled with this myself, so I’m hoping you can give me some pointers, too today.
Karen McClure [00:01:08]:
Okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Darren Wurz [00:01:11]:
Well, let’s kick it off by just sharing a little bit about your background as an attorney and what led you to becoming a lawyer burnout coach.
Karen McClure [00:01:22]:
Yeah. So I started practicing law in 2006, and I went in to work with my dad, which definitely was not the career path that I anticipated, but I worked with him for several years under his wing and mentorship. And then in 2013. Well, let me go back a little bit, actually. In 2011, twelve, my mom had breast cancer. And then immediately on the heels of that, my dad was diagnosed with cancer as well. Oh, wow. Yeah. And add to that, my husband and I were expecting our second child, so it was a period of immense stress, to say the least.
Darren Wurz [00:02:18]:
Absolutely.
Karen McClure [00:02:20]:
My dad had made me a partner in the firm after I had worked with him for a few years, and so I was kind of learning the ropes at that time. And he was out of the office a lot for my mom’s chemo and then for his own treatment. And then as his health declined and we had a newborn, I did a little bit of soul searching at that time. So after he passed away that year and my husband and I took over the firm, it was the most difficult chapter in my life. We had a six month old. We had a firm that we didn’t really know how to run, and neither of us really enjoyed being attorneys. So I started kind of looking around for other things that I could do to make myself feel better. I did a lot of yoga and meditation, which I think is something that is really common when we look at the wellness initiatives in the legal profession. They suggest those two things specifically, and they definitely helped, but it wasn’t quite enough. And I was looking around in the personal development world for what can I do? What kind of side hustles can I try so I can transition out of practicing law? So I tried a few different things over the last few years, and ultimately I started working with a business coach, and that was when I first started to understand what coaching is, because I think that a lot of us have heard of life coaches and executive coaches and things like that, but it’s such a new profession that as attorneys, we may not really know exactly what that is. So I’m getting a little bit long winded here, but that was my introduction to the coaching world.
Darren Wurz [00:04:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. You’re right. I think you’re the only burnout coach that I know. I think it is a very new and specialized area, and I am seeing a lot more focus on attorney wellness. And so I think this is the right time for someone like you to come along and be able to help other people. So it sounds like you had a lot going on, obviously a lot of stressors and not just being an attorney, but having to step into the shoes of running a firm and then all of your life circumstances happening at the same time. Was that the underlying cause of burnout, just all of those things happening for you, or what was really define how burnout kind of exhibited itself in your life?
Karen McClure [00:05:26]:
Yeah. So for me, it showed up in my profession as an attorney because once I, and not just when I was running the firm, but it really started rearing its head after that, because just the volume of things that you have to deal with as an attorney. Right. So you’ve got clients. If you’re a solo or small firm practitioner, then you have a whole business to run, which is not a skill that they teach you in law school. So we had to learn that. I think this is the case for not just small firm lawyers just bringing in, being the rainmaker. Right. And dealing with other attorneys and the lack of professionalism that we’re starting to see so much of and the demand on your time and the demand on your energy. And it’s difficult for people to be able to balance all that. I hate that word balance, but to manage all of the expectations that are on us as attorneys. And so that, I think, is how it started showing up for me, and I see that showing up for my clients, too.
Darren Wurz [00:06:54]:
Yeah. So let’s define this, because how do you know when you’re burned out? I mean, maybe we’re like, someone’s thinking, well, I’m not really excited about work. I’m really stressed. But I don’t know when do I know when I’m at that burnout stage? What are some key indicators to look for?
Karen McClure [00:07:17]:
That is a great question, because I think there’s a big difference between stress and burnout, and I’ll take a second, too. Stress is something that shows up in the way that we feel. It’s not something that’s outside of us. And then as you continue to feel that stress, that’s when it leads to burnout. So when you have continuous stress in your career, that’s when it leads to burnout. And it’s actually something that has been more psychologically defined lately as work related. And so as you continue to expose yourself to these stress sores, then you start to feel physical sensations of burnout, like lack of energy, inability to sleep, lack of engagement. And the similarity to depression is something that people bring up, but it’s more episodic. But if you continue it over time, it’ll lead to more adverse health effects.
Darren Wurz [00:08:30]:
Oh, wow.
Karen McClure [00:08:31]:
Does that make sense?
Darren Wurz [00:08:33]:
Yeah. It’s crazy that it can really exhibit itself for you, not just mentally, but physically. That’s a strange and weird phenomenon to me, but great that we have that ability to maybe see some of those clues in our lives, like lack of energy and some of those other things we might experience. Go ahead. Sorry.
Karen McClure [00:09:01]:
And one of the big things that we really see is the withdrawal from social situations. Right. And so when you’re starting to feel that way, we feel often like we’re a failure or like we’re just not doing a good enough job. So we don’t want to be around people. We don’t want to bring in the new business. We don’t want to go to the social events that are so crucial to networking and bringing in business.
Darren Wurz [00:09:30]:
Yeah, absolutely. Maybe you feel like you’re not doing a good enough job for your clients, and you feel like, oh, my gosh, all my clients hate me. They’re not happy. Is that something that might experience.
Karen McClure [00:09:44]:
Yeah. And that impostor syndrome?
Darren Wurz [00:09:46]:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. That’s a big one for a lot of professionals, for sure. So is it just the busyness of being an attorney? You mentioned some other things as well that might be factors or causes here of burnout. What are some of the big things that cause burnout for attorneys that you have seen, or especially for law firm owners?
Karen McClure [00:10:12]:
We place expectations on ourselves. So when people go to law school, they don’t do it because they expect something easy. We, as attorneys, are type a people. We’re used to being in the top of the class. We’re used to working really hard to achieve our goals, and we’re used to seeing results, and it’s almost like a formula. And so I think, yeah, when you place that kind of level of expectation on this is how my life is going to go, and it doesn’t necessarily work out that way. It starts to weigh on you, and then you start looking for other things that you can do to make yourself feel better. We work harder. We don’t address the underlying emotional issues that are happening when we don’t meet our expectations.
Darren Wurz [00:11:11]:
That’s fascinating. So there’s almost a mental shift that we need to go through in that process. Is that something that you help clients with?
Karen McClure [00:11:22]:
Okay, yes, absolutely. So when I help clients, there are a couple of different things that I help with. One of them is dealing with their nervous system and resetting that. Because when you’re in a constant state of stress, your nervous system is on high alert. Right. So we all have heard about fight or flight, and there’s also freeze, and that’s what’s happening. We’re trying to get away from this perceived threat or just freezing. And that’s when we kind of go more inward and withdrawal. You see things like that. So I help establish a sense of safety with our nervous system. That’s one thing. And then the other thing is that once we can establish that sense that everything is okay and we’re not in danger, there’s no real threat. Then we start to look at our thought processes and what has led us to feel this way. Because we know from cognitive behavioral therapy that our thoughts are what make us feel certain emotions and what lead to certain actions, like working harder or drinking more or laying on the couch under the blanket watching Netflix all day, whatever it is for.
Darren Wurz [00:12:44]:
Right. Yeah. I find that very interesting, that a lot of this, not that it’s our fault, but that it kind of stems from our expectations that we kind of burden ourselves with. It’s interesting. It also provides a lot of hope, because it’s like, hey, if I can correct those, if I can establish kind of a new way of thinking, maybe I can deal with this a lot better.
Karen McClure [00:13:10]:
That’s right. Yeah. And that, I think, is really good news for most people, because when you’re in a state of overwhelm or burnout, then you think it’s going to be like this forever. And I think that there’s a perception for attorneys that that’s just part of the job. That feeling that way is just what it is. And what I hope to do is to overcome that perception and to show people you can still be successful as an attorney. You don’t have to feel terrible.
Darren Wurz [00:13:48]:
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s talk about, you’re running a law firm and dealing with teams or with employees. Are there strategies that law firm owners can use to kind of maybe detect burnout in their teams and maybe try to help prevent that from occurring?
Karen McClure [00:14:12]:
Yes, because it definitely does show up with our legal assistants and paralegals as well.
Darren Wurz [00:14:18]:
Oh, wow. Okay.
Karen McClure [00:14:20]:
If you think about it, everything, it goes from the top down. So if I am placing expectations on my paralegal to get things done under deadlines and really quickly, or if I am bad at managing my time and then I go to my paralegal and say, you got to get this done right now, then, of course, that’s going to cause some stress and frustration with that person as well. I think that just having some good time management skills is vital, and knowing what our boundaries are, that’s something that we really need to work on, too.
Darren Wurz [00:15:10]:
Boundaries.
Karen McClure [00:15:12]:
Yeah, it’s a hot topic these days, I think.
Darren Wurz [00:15:16]:
Yeah, let’s dive into that a little bit. What role does boundary setting play in preventing burnout?
Karen McClure [00:15:23]:
Oh, my gosh. I think that is the first step. So when people think about boundaries, we think we’re trying to control other people and other people’s behavior, which you can’t. So what a boundary is, is if you do x, I will do y, and it’s not easy. And as we’re recording this, we’re coming up on thanksgiving. I think that’s been coming up a lot for people. If you talk about this, then I will walk away as an example. But in a law firm setting, we have to think about that in terms of our clients. Something came up recently. How do you deal with clients texting you at all hours of the night? Well, you have to set that boundary at the beginning. If you text me after 05:00 p.m. 06:00 p.m. I will not respond until the next day. Simple.
Darren Wurz [00:16:28]:
Yeah. Setting expectations, for sure. That’s great. Are there some other practical things that law firm owners can do, tips or tricks you might have for avoiding getting to that burnout place?
Karen McClure [00:16:46]:
I think aside from setting boundaries, I talk about time management a lot because it’s something that goes by the wayside. We have a tendency to just get into the office and say what’s in front of me today, but having a plan that you’re going to stick with as best as you can, because I know that things come up and we have to fight firms, but having a plan to stick with is so good for helping you know, what’s coming up and how you’re going to handle it. And then sometimes we’re able to say, okay, this fire needs fighting right now, but I can shift what I’m working on to another time.
Darren Wurz [00:17:32]:
Yeah. And then you become more productive that way. And speaking of productivity, I’m curious. I suspect that burnout leads to procrastination. Is that a correct thing? Can you tell us about that?
Karen McClure [00:17:48]:
Yeah. Well, if you think about it, if you’re in a place where you’re feeling emotionally exhausted and drained, then when something big comes up, if you’ve got a brief or you’ve got a deadline, it’s like, I don’t have the energy to do this. Right. Mean, we talked about the health problems that are a result of burnout, but, I mean, that can lead to some professional problems. Know, and I was reading the ABA journal this morning, and I saw a lawyer that he got in trouble for basically missing deadlines, and said, well, I have a lot of stuff going on that doesn’t fly.
Darren Wurz [00:18:30]:
Yeah, unfortunately. How about you’ve been working with law firm owners. Is there a great story you can tell us of someone you’ve worked with, obviously protecting their identity, but can you give us an example of maybe a success story?
Karen McClure [00:18:51]:
Yeah, one of the things that I’ve recently worked with somebody on is she wanted to stop drinking so much. And that’s an issue in our profession that starts from law school on all of the parties that we have with open bars. And if you’re somebody who’s really stressed out, that is your coping mechanism. And so I helped her with that. I helped her overcome over drinking by helping her figure out the reason why she felt like she needed to. So that was a really interesting situation that I helped with recently.
Darren Wurz [00:19:36]:
Yeah. And what a great real life impact to have in someone’s life.
Karen McClure [00:19:44]:
Yes. That really was helpful to her.
Darren Wurz [00:19:49]:
Great. Now, I imagine when people are thinking about working with you, maybe they have some objections. Maybe they’re like, oh, I don’t really need a burnout coach. I can manage this on my own. How do you encourage people to engage with you or maybe overcome some of those common objections that attorneys might have?
Karen McClure [00:20:16]:
Yeah, we’re used to being able to solve problems for everybody, and we think we can solve our own problems. But the problem with that is if you could have fixed it, you probably would have by now. That’s a little bit of tough love, but it’s always a good idea to have somebody to be able, somebody to lean on. And I work with attorneys on their time schedule as well, so I have a few different options that people can work with me. We have one off sessions, so if there’s something that’s really weighing on your mind, we can work on that. And then we’ve got packages as well. But as far as being able to fix it yourself, one thing that I would tell attorneys is that I think that we can solve our problems ourselves. Sure. But are you willing to put in the time? Because our most valuable asset that we have as humans is time. And so what I can do for you is show you an outside perspective and identify things quicker than you usually can from the inside. And that’ll save you time so that you can do the things that are more important to you.
Darren Wurz [00:21:47]:
Yeah. And sometimes we just need that extra person to kind of push us along. I imagine if you’re know, because you’re burned out, you’re probably procrastinating about addressing your burnout in the first.
Karen McClure [00:22:00]:
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
Darren Wurz [00:22:03]:
Wow. Karen, do you have kind of a process that you go through with folks when they’re working with you? Could you tell us a little bit about that?
Karen McClure [00:22:10]:
Yeah, I do. So I talked about it a little bit with the nervous system, and that, I think, is the very foundation that we have to work on and figuring out where you are in that. So the first thing that I will help you do is to just show you some strategies. So when you are feeling that sense of overwhelm and stress, you can calm down a little bit and just know that it’s okay, that you’re safe, that there’s nothing that you need to worry about. And then from there, we can address the thought process. So the biggest thing that we do is to identify what subconscious beliefs are holding you stuck in these patterns. So what are you thinking that’s causing you to feel overwhelmed, stressed out, drained, whatever you want to call it? And then why do you feel that way? And so we sort of just explore that and go from there. So I’m not by any means saying, well, everything’s going to be okay, just move on from here, or just, you should think about it this way or whatever. Look on the sunny side. We have to become aware of what we’re thinking that’s causing the results that we have right now so that we can move to a place where you’re able to reform your beliefs and your actions and change where you are.
Darren Wurz [00:23:53]:
Yeah, that sounds great. Absolutely. And I think this is such a critical topic because it affects everything. It affects your prosperity. It affects your success. I mean, if you’re burned out, it’s going to be very hard for you to scale your practice, to be that rainmaker, to bring in new business and to get new clients and to serve your existing clients well so that they’ll refer other people to you. So that’s why we’re talking about this on this show.
Karen McClure [00:24:21]:
That’s right. Yeah, absolutely. If you’re not able to focus, if you don’t have any energy, then you are not being the best advocate for your.
Darren Wurz [00:24:34]:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, Karen, we’re coming down to the end of our time here. I’ve got one more big question for you. Are you ready for it?
Karen McClure [00:24:43]:
I’m ready.
Darren Wurz [00:24:44]:
And the question is, what is your millionaire mission? And what I mean by that is, what’s your big driving force behind the work that you do? Maybe it’s a goal you’re trying to achieve, a retirement vision or something. What is your big why for why you do the stuff you do?
Karen McClure [00:25:02]:
My big why is that over the years of practice, I have seen so many attorneys who are unhappy with the practice of law in general, unhappy with their clients, unhappy with other lawyers. And I believe that we can change the legal culture. And it takes one person at a time.
Darren Wurz [00:25:26]:
Absolutely. I love that, Karen. That’s great stuff. Well, I imagine people may have questions about this, and if they do, how can they find you if they want to learn more?
Karen McClure [00:25:37]:
So I’m on all of the social media channels. You can find me on LinkedIn, Karen McClure on Instagram at Karen McClure coaching, and you can email me or visit my website, karenmcclure.com.
Darren Wurz [00:25:55]:
Fantastic. Thanks so much, Karen, for being with us today and sharing your insights with us. And thank you, the listener, for joining us today as well. Cultivating a thriving firm and nurturing your team’s well being goes hand in hand with improving your financial success. And that’s what we’re all about. If you found today’s episode enlightening, please make sure to follow, subscribe, and leave a review. We appreciate your support. Until next time, I’m Darren Wurz, wishing you a prosperous journey as you navigate the complex world of money and law firm ownership. Remember, you’re not alone in your pursuit of success. We’re always here, ready to guide and support you. To learn more, please visit thelawyermillionaire.com.